VCRA

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peterporsche
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VCRA

Postby peterporsche » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:30 pm

Good evening all I have been told that being a Mvt member is a defence for the VCRA does anyone know if this is true or not :shock:
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Wladek
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Re: VCRA

Postby Wladek » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:33 pm

Mvt? :|
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Re: VCRA

Postby peterporsche » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:36 pm

Sorry Military vehicle trust
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Re: VCRA

Postby Wladek » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:50 pm

ah. I do not know in that case... hopefully someone else will know, as I can see both sides making sense.
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Re: VCRA

Postby Chomley-Warner » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:55 pm

I'd sort of turn it on its head. Since the VCRA isn't the model of crystal clarity and puts the onus on the sellers to satisfy themselves of a valid defence then you could just ask, say, Fire Support or Airsoft World if they would sell RIFs to chaps who can prove they are members of the MVT.

I'm not sure myself that owning a military vehicle comes under the spirit of the VCRA (it's just collecting and collectors don't have a valid defence) and on that basis I would personally need reasoned persuading before selling kit. Other's mileage may vary - remember a defence isn't a right to buy! It's a moot point though - chaps sat on a chair in front of their LandRover at a show ain't that much different from chaps sat on a chair behind a rope in repro uniform with the contents of a small pack laid out before them!
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Re: VCRA

Postby Ramsay00105 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:41 pm

As a member of the MVT and here I would support Chomleys view. Members of the MVT can and do reenactment. Many do own RIF's to do this. I do not think they have tested their defence yet as to whether they are a reenactor or not. I do not think the Council of Managment would support an application just to buy RIF's without an interest in MV's. You can always ask them. The defence for reenactment is as clear cut under the act as it ever gets. However how you prove you are a reenactor is not.
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Re: VCRA

Postby peterporsche » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:22 pm

Well I don't really feel any the wiser would I be right in thinking it would be down to the seller to decided if they where happy to sell it to the person or not.
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Re: VCRA

Postby Chomley-Warner » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:19 pm

Exactly so, the buck stops with the seller. Dire consequences are possible so I certainly wouldn't like to give a definitive answer by putting myself before the courts as a test case for reasons of experimentation! Others may take a different attitude I suppose. Oh, and isn't there an offence of causing someone else to commit an offence?
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Re: VCRA

Postby Yith » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:42 pm

Extracts from the VCRA

37 - Specific defences applying to the offence under s. 36

(1)It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 36 in respect of any conduct to show that the conduct was for the purpose only of making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes specified in subsection (2).

(2)Those purposes are—
...
(e)the organisation and holding of historical re-enactments organised and held by persons specified or described for the purposes of this section by regulations made by the Secretary of State;
...
(7)In this section—
“historical re-enactment” means any presentation or other event held for the purpose of re-enacting an event from the past or of illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past;


and from the explanatory notes
239. Under subsection (2) the Secretary of State will have the power to make regulations to
specify which historical re-enactments will benefit from the defence in subsection (1).
This enables the exception for historical re-enactments to be confined to bona fide
organisations. The regulations will be subject to the negative resolution procedure.


Now correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember something about the test for a "bona fide organisation" including the ownership of Public Liability Insurance.

So, if the MVT does historical re-enactments as defined by that definition, has PLI (?) and you are a member, then the seller should be ok.

But in the end it's up to the seller to decide if they're happy with it.
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Re: VCRA

Postby Yith » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:46 pm

Of course, MVT could possibly come under the museum clause as well?

(2)Those purposes are—

(a)the purposes of a museum or gallery;


“museum or gallery” includes any institution which—
(a)has as its purpose, or one of its purposes, the preservation, display and interpretation of material of historical, artistic or scientific interest; and
(b)gives the public access to it.


Though would not having an actual physical location cause issues there?
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Re: VCRA

Postby peterporsche » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:10 pm

Thank you for the replies very helpful as always :good:
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Re: VCRA

Postby Chomley-Warner » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:21 pm

Well, I'm pretty sure I'd be hard pressed to stand before a magistrate and explain that I thought the Land Rover owner I sold a RIF to was a museum! And there's the rub, it matters bugger all what YOU as a seller think, it's down to the beak. Trying to pick holes or 'loopholes' in the VCRA is all very well for a buyer - it is the seller who carries the can.

The OP asks a question expecting a definitive yes/no answer. As I said, contact the big boys whose livelihood and liberty depends on sticking within the law and their answer, I'd say, would be the safest option. It certainly could be argued that a member of the MVT could possibly come under the category of a reenactor. But do you have to own a vehicle to be a member? Do you even have to attend events? If not then a membership card, surely, wouldn't define you as a reenactor.
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Re: VCRA

Postby Yith » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:23 pm

Well as for the museum thing. Sticking it on your historic vehicle and displaying it at public events might count... as long as it's appropriate.

You'd have to prove that was the reason you were getting it though... or more accurately, the seller would have to prove it.
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Re: VCRA

Postby Poacher » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:47 am

Even if you convince the seller your troubles may not be over.
There is another way to get nicked. Possession of a firearm in a public place without good reason.
If you meet the VCRA and are busy displaying/re-enacting your little socks off at some railway event, you may have good reason. If you don't meet the VCRA as a re-enactor and turn up with RIFs etc slung round you neck or mounted on your vehicle then you probably don't.
Having a Ukara number allows you to purchase rifs as you are recognised as a skirmishes. It does not grant you the PLI and group status required to qualify as a re-enactor under the act. Turning up with rifs in public might land you in trouble as it might vehicle owners. The Ukara exception is for skirmishing, not for displays and re-enactment.
As it happens the MVT members do usually meet the requirements, they have the group structure and the insurance aspects well covered. Just owning a jeep does not mean you can buy a .50.
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Re: VCRA

Postby Chomley-Warner » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:21 am

Just had a quick look at the MVT and quite clearly being a member of the trust does NOT give you an automatic defence to buy RIFs. Therefore sellers will need much more proof than the sight of a card - unlike an AFRA card, for instance, which is only available to reenactors (not collectors, or those with just an interest in history etc).

http://www.mvt.org.uk/APP_files/new_membership.htm

Why not join the MVT today! You do not need to own a military vehicle! Just an interest in the subject will do.

By joining the MVT you receive .......Membership and
* FOUR issues of Windscreen Magazine.
* SIX issues of our 'Greensheet' (Sales and Wants)
* Access to the MVT Library.
* Reduced military vehicle insurance.
* Access to local MVT area meetings
* Exchange of views and technical know how
* Vehicle verification for unregistered MV vehicles.
* Free admission to MVT organised events on production of your Membership Card.
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