Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

St. Lo - Hell in the Hedgerows - Saturday 20th June 2009
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Boshman
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Re: Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

Postby Boshman » Wed May 13, 2009 12:25 pm

Hmm, I'm certainly no expert, I was simply going by the manual which Martin linked to. acording to that manual the roles are as follows:

Squad leader - Commands his squad. He directs fire of the LMG and in so far as the combat permits, that of the riflemen also. He is responsible for the mechanical condition of the weapons and equipment and the availabilty of ammunition within his squad.

MG Gunner No1- Operates the MG in battle and is responsible for the care of the weapon.

MG Gunner No2 - Carries spare barrel and ammo. Assist No1 gunner in combat, insures a supply of ammo to the MG, assist in preperation for firing and going into position. Then takes a position under cover to left rear flank of MG, ready to aid No1 with jams, reload etc. and finally to replace No1 gunner if injured or killed!

MG Gunner No3 - Carries spare ammo and barrel, takes cover to rear, checks and suppies ammo and operates as a close in or hand to hand fighter, and finally to replace No1 & No 2 gunners on the MG if injured or killed!

Riflemen - Execute close combat fighting with rifle, One rifleman is 2IC. he is the assistant of the squad leader and commands the squad in the absence of the leader. he is responsible for liason with the platoon commander and adjacent squads.

Based on that and also what you have said, it prob makes sense for no2 MG gunner to have a K98 and No3 to have MP40/MP44 for close in defense.

Maybe the No3 gunner should actually be substituted with the squad leader for our purposes?
“I wanted to come to the Volga at a specific location at a specific city. By chance it carries the name of Stalin himself. So don’t think I marched there for this reason – it could carry another name – but because there is a very important goal... this goal I wanted to take – and you know – we are very modest, we have it already."
Adolf Hitler, November 1942

"Comrades, Red Army men, commanders and political workers, men and women guerrillas! It is on your perseverance, staunchness, fighting skill and readiness to discharge your duty to the country that the defeat of the German-fascist army and the liberation of the Soviet land from the Hitlerite invaders depend! We can and must clear the Soviet land of Hitlerite vermin."
Joseph Stalin, November 1942

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Re: Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

Postby Lardassmonkey » Wed May 13, 2009 1:44 pm

I've read evidence to suggest that it could work either way around although for later war tactics I belive you may be right. Early war it makes more sense for the squad leader to accompany the assualt team, having better control over them and using his MP40 to increase their firepower at short ranges. Late war the squad would ofter advance as one so he could maintain overall control whilst directing the fire of the most important element- the MG.

If we only have an 8 man squad it makes sense to go with a 2 man MG crew rather than a 3 man one. Especially since we aren't carrying as much ammo as you would for the real thing. The squad leader can effectively cover the rear of the MG crew when necessary.
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Re: Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

Postby Boshman » Wed May 13, 2009 2:03 pm

Lardassmonkey wrote:I've read evidence to suggest that it could work either way around although for later war tactics I belive you may be right. Early war it makes more sense for the squad leader to accompany the assualt team, having better control over them and using his MP40 to increase their firepower at short ranges. Late war the squad would ofter advance as one so he could maintain overall control whilst directing the fire of the most important element- the MG.

If we only have an 8 man squad it makes sense to go with a 2 man MG crew rather than a 3 man one. Especially since we aren't carrying as much ammo as you would for the real thing. The squad leader can effectively cover the rear of the MG crew when necessary.


Makes Sense Rich, I'll go along with that! :good:

In the german squad, It was all about the MG. if a squad lost its MG then the remaining members would just be re-distributed to other squads.

I think these two little articles sum it up very nicely:

http://www.dererstezug.com/TacticalPhilosophies.htm
http://www.dererstezug.com/1944Gruppe.htm
“I wanted to come to the Volga at a specific location at a specific city. By chance it carries the name of Stalin himself. So don’t think I marched there for this reason – it could carry another name – but because there is a very important goal... this goal I wanted to take – and you know – we are very modest, we have it already."
Adolf Hitler, November 1942

"Comrades, Red Army men, commanders and political workers, men and women guerrillas! It is on your perseverance, staunchness, fighting skill and readiness to discharge your duty to the country that the defeat of the German-fascist army and the liberation of the Soviet land from the Hitlerite invaders depend! We can and must clear the Soviet land of Hitlerite vermin."
Joseph Stalin, November 1942

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Re: Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

Postby Steiner » Wed May 13, 2009 4:07 pm

Did FJ have a higher percentage of MP40s? Even at Crete, there appear to be a high percentage of them, from the photos I've seen.
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Re: Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

Postby Boshman » Wed May 13, 2009 5:17 pm

Steiner wrote:Did FJ have a higher percentage of MP40s? Even at Crete, there appear to be a high percentage of them, from the photos I've seen.


Good question. This taken from the axishistory forums:

Luftwaffe War Establishment (Kriegsstärkenachweisung) 8121(L) dated 1.5.44 gives the following organization for a rifle platoon in a Fallshirmjägerkompanie:

Zugführer (Platoon Leader) Lt,

Zugtrupp (Platoon HQ section)
1 Zugtruppführer (Sec Ldr)
3 Melder (Messenger)
1 Waffenwart (Armorer)

3 Squads, including in total (for all 3 squads)
3 Gruppenführer (Squad Leader)
3 Stellvertretende Gruppenführer (Deputy Squad Leader)
12 Schützen (Riflemen)
12 MG-Schützen (Machinegunners and assistants)
2 Drivers for 3-ton trucks

All personnel except the Platoon Leader (Lieutenant) were NCOs. NOTE: All enlisted personnel in Luftwaffen Parachute units were NCOs.

The Platoon was armed as follows (the War Establishment does not assign weapons to individuals)

16 Rifles (incl. 3 with sniper telescopes)
13 Pistols
9 Submachineguns
3 Grenade pistols ("Kampfpistole" these were modified flare guns that could shoot small grenades)
6 Rifle grenade adapters
6 Machineguns.

As a comparison, a contemporary Army rifle platoon of the period had 33 personnel and the following weapons:
22 Rifles
5 Pistols
7 Submachineguns
4 Machineguns

If that is correct then its typically 3 SMG's, 2 MG's and 1 sniper per squad!

also interesting, is the claim that all enlisted personel were NCO's :shock:
“I wanted to come to the Volga at a specific location at a specific city. By chance it carries the name of Stalin himself. So don’t think I marched there for this reason – it could carry another name – but because there is a very important goal... this goal I wanted to take – and you know – we are very modest, we have it already."
Adolf Hitler, November 1942

"Comrades, Red Army men, commanders and political workers, men and women guerrillas! It is on your perseverance, staunchness, fighting skill and readiness to discharge your duty to the country that the defeat of the German-fascist army and the liberation of the Soviet land from the Hitlerite invaders depend! We can and must clear the Soviet land of Hitlerite vermin."
Joseph Stalin, November 1942

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Re: Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

Postby Steiner » Wed May 13, 2009 5:19 pm

Maybe depends on what they class as an NCO - Gefreiter was the equivalent of less than a lance corporal.
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Re: Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

Postby BedsnHerts » Wed May 13, 2009 9:09 pm

Steiner wrote:Maybe depends on what they class as an NCO - Gefreiter was the equivalent of less than a lance corporal.


I'd say an Unteroffizier. Gefreiter and Obergefreiter had no authority over other soldiers.

Loving the squad composition. Although let's not forget that the minimum engagement range for rifles can be a pain in the hoop if you rush over an embankment and find yourself face-to-face with the enemy. Maybe spread them around a bit more even if it's at the expense of historical accuracy.
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Re: Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

Postby Peppered » Wed May 13, 2009 9:36 pm

Hi,

I like the organisation. I can't offer anything historical but how about arming the rifle squad 60/40 k98 /mp40 with grenandes so there is a stormtrooper section for the close stuff?
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Re: Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

Postby Lardassmonkey » Thu May 14, 2009 11:21 am

Loving the squad composition. Although let's not forget that the minimum engagement range for rifles can be a pain in the hoop if you rush over an embankment and find yourself face-to-face with the enemy. Maybe spread them around a bit more even if it's at the expense of historical accuracy.



Thats what bayonets are for! :twisted: There will probably be a maximum of 4 of us using rifles at any one time, so I think it will be ok. The rest of the site is quite open so the extra range the rifles will give us could be a real advantage there, especially as the yanks have no reply.
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Re: Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

Postby Gadge » Thu May 14, 2009 11:33 am

Lardassmonkey wrote:

The rest of the site is quite open s


Not in June Rich... all that grass should be waist high by now!

In all seriousness we did a site review last july and it was like vietnam in places hence we chose to do st lo when all the greenery on the berms will be like bocage!

Expect much more ground cover and low foliage than there was in march - muchmore
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Re: Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

Postby Yith » Thu May 14, 2009 11:37 am

Note that rifles will still be very useful though.

Hmm... a springfield or two in the yank ranks might be nice. :)
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Re: Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

Postby Lardassmonkey » Thu May 14, 2009 11:45 am

Even more reason to bring a bayonet! Still sounds like good terrain for rifles though- pop up from the grass to take a shot, drop down and relocate. 8)
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Re: Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

Postby Gadge » Thu May 14, 2009 11:48 am

Indeed!
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Re: Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

Postby JD7 » Thu May 14, 2009 11:51 am

anyone for a Flammenwerfer :rofl:

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Re: Glück ab. FJR. 13 at Saint-Lô.

Postby Lardassmonkey » Thu May 14, 2009 11:56 am

:rofl:
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