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A Comrades in Arms event, Hay on Wye
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Wladek
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Postby Wladek » Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:41 pm

Yes I have a question, I assume the inclusion of one of David Irving's books as a reference is one of your dry witty jokes? :wink:
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Re: Your questions here

Postby Chomley-Warner » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:09 pm

Not in the least, it's an interesting read.
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Re: Your questions here

Postby Wladek » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:23 pm

OK :waggle: , in the interests of placing the interesting read into context I would suggest people first read Telling Lies About Hitler, by Richard Evans (which is not available for free download). or at least the pertinent paragraph that follows -

Not one of [Irving's] books, speeches or articles, not one paragraph, not one sentence in any of them, can be taken on trust as an accurate representation of its historical subject. All of them are completely worthless as history, because Irving cannot be trusted anywhere, in any of them, to give a reliable account of what he is talking or writing about. ... if we mean by historian someone who is concerned to discover the truth about the past, and to give as accurate a representation of it as possible, then Irving is not a historian.


Just in case anyone was to confuse interesting, and accurate
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Re: Your questions here

Postby Chomley-Warner » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:38 pm

Don't waggle a finger at me! I'm not going to restrict anyone's reading material nor get into an argy-bargy between 'historians'. If you read the book you will see an element of elaboration but the story is much as related elsewhere (in reference to our scenario). There is a fair bit of apparent verbatim quoting of conversations which is a bit odd but certainly makes it a bit more readable.
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Wladek
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Re: Your questions here

Postby Wladek » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:54 pm

heh, it was a jokey waggle (aren't all smilies inherently jokes I thought?).

Well I will drop it, despite actually caring, but it isn't about restricting is it, it's about recommending. And given that anything read from Irving's works has to be verified elsewhere to check it isn't a great big made up lie, It would make more sense to point people to the elsewhere and ignore Irving altogether.
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Re: Your questions here

Postby Chomley-Warner » Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:01 pm

Wladek wrote:It would make more sense to point people to the elsewhere

As indeed I did.
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Re: Your questions here

Postby SSFrontSoldat » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:26 am

Chomley-Warner wrote:Not in the least, it's an interesting read.


Thanks for the excellent recommendation ….it was indeed an interesting read…..as were the other books. :good:

Keep them coming, boy....!!!! :happydance:

I have found your comments on the Forum as a fellow Airsofter to be witty, sharp, refreshing, straight forward without ‘Fuss and Feathers’, disarming, unprovocative, interesting, balanced, practical, challenging in a positive manner, encouraging and inspiring! Thanks! :good:

A big thanks to all the other Forum members for their fine comments and contributions. :happyclap:

As for it being an ‘interesting’ read….I did some research on Mr Irving who seems to be a Rommel/ von Richthofen of sorts….people seem to hate him, but love and admire him too. Confused.com????? they seem.

Came across this ‘recommendation’ as quoted below:

“It was thoroughly researched and employed a variety of themes . . . It also confirmed Irving’s reputation as one of the world’s most thorough researchers and an exciting and readable ‘historian’.”
— Board of Deputies of British Jews

And then this one as well………

“David Irving has been so successful in building up a reputation as The Man You Love To Hate that his merits as an historian are too easily forgotten. ... But professional historians have always envied him his immense capacity for work and his astonishing luck in finding new documents; and they should be grateful to him ... But his fellow historians can take nothing but pleasure in [this] work.”
— Prof. Michael Howard

A quick search on Google of other knowledgeable notables who ‘recommend’ Irvings books were 11 other academics (‘Professors’), two US Generals (‘Retired’…who fought in WW2), Stephen Roskill (an ‘official’ Historian) and a man I personally respect and trust and whose recommendation I highly esteem….Sir Hugh Trevor Roper!

So thanks again for an ‘interesting’ read and 'recommendation'…look forward to others you may have for us in the future!!!!!! :giggle: :happyswing:
Ersten rein und Letzten raus. Ich bin halt keine graue Maus!

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2. "Find the cause of your own ignorance.
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Re: Your questions here

Postby Chomley-Warner » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:42 am

Irving is a controversial figure for sure which is why Wladek brought the topic up. Nonetheless, I couldn't find anything particularly controversial in the book. Contentious perhaps, a lot of imaginative gap filling but it does tell the story in a readable manner. For controversial reading examine Hess' son's opinions and version of events.
BTW, anyone who strays into topics such as holocaust denial and other such Irving-esque things will have posts instantly removed, this is neither the time nor the place.
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Re: Your questions here

Postby Wladek » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:33 pm

OK, most, if not all of those quotes on Irving's competence are from before the Lipstadt trial, which was the first time that any of Irving's books were subjected to proper academic scrutiny. As Irving presented his works as properly cited history his arguments were found to be interesting, controversial, yet authoritative.

It was during this trial that his works were checked with a fine tooth-comb, and his references found to be untrustworthy. Many sources were invented, faked and quoted selectively to make his points, and secondary references were found to be circular (he quotes an author as substantiating his case, on checking that author had quoted him as substantiating the same with no substantiation actually occurring).

This is not a matter of his holocaust denial - as Chomely says it is not entirely relevant here, but as his credibility as an historian. There is a degree of trust in historical works - if a quote supporting a theory is given in a work it is expected to be truly represented. That Irving not only deliberately misrepresented such evidence, but invented some of it, makes what he says untrustworthy to a reader not an expert in the subject (by which I mean people who have spent several years of their lives in Berlin archives, not, frankly us).

After the trial, and the exposure of Irving's historical method I am aware of no serious historian supporting his works. In fact most of the support found for him on a quick internet search is from his own website. Whether this specific piece is controversial or not, it is not trustworthy. So by all means read it, but just do not believe it unless the same is written elsewhere.
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Re: Off topic

Postby Chomley-Warner » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:57 am

Rather splendidly, should anyone try Google to seek more information about Haputmann Holt, you will find Comrades in Arms on the first page. Heh, my powers of Google ranking know no bounds!
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Re: Off topic

Postby CHThree » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:34 pm

I used to live in a place where Hess had been rumoured to have been kept after he arrived in the UK.

At the time the rumour was that the secret door (there was one) behind the mirror in the side hall led to bedroom where he was held.

http://humendesire.blogspot.com/2008/10 ... nt_29.html
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