Thanks to all

A Gunman Airsoft 'D-Day' series battle weekend
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pvtjohnny
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Re: Thanks to all

Postby pvtjohnny » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:31 pm

would firmer leadership at nco/squad leader level help with all this? more often than not, ordes are delivered in a 'if you wouldnt mind' or in a very vague way. for example, instead of being told to 'push forward on that ridge' the order could be clearer 'form up in extended line, 10 meters apart and push up onto that ridge, clear it of enemy and secure it and wait for further orders'. I for one would respond well to such control in the field and surely if people accepted this approach, it woud be easier to control a game from an organisational point of view? When there are gray areas with orders, this leaves the individual to interperate what was said or have to decide what to do (or frees them to take liberties). it's then you get people eating lunch, lonewolfing or swapping out flags with only 2 men. Tighter control is the answer for me :whip: , with seasoned ww2 airsofters who 'get' the scene oh and airsofters willing to take orders and follow them! Thing is, we all think we know how to do it best, just like any other oranised activity. just ask the england manager :rofl:
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Re: Thanks to all

Postby dieselmonkey » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:44 pm

pvtjohnny wrote:would firmer leadership at nco/squad leader level help with all this? more often than not, ordes are delivered in a 'if you wouldnt mind' or in a very vague way. for example, instead of being told to 'push forward on that ridge' the order could be clearer 'form up in extended line, 10 meters apart and push up onto that ridge, clear it of enemy and secure it and wait for further orders'. I for one would respond well to such control in the field and surely if people accepted this approach, it woud be easier to control a game from an organisational point of view? When there are gray areas with orders, this leaves the individual to interperate what was said or have to decide what to do (or frees them to take liberties). it's then you get people eating lunch, lonewolfing or swapping out flags with only 2 men. Tighter control is the answer for me :whip: , with seasoned ww2 airsofters who 'get' the scene oh and airsofters willing to take orders and follow them! Thing is, we all think we know how to do it best, just like any other oranised activity. just ask the england manager :rofl:


It's a nice thought, but at the end of the day, it's a game to most people. If you want to get shouted at by someone in big boots, you can either join the TA, or there are a whole range of specialist nightclubs for that sort of thing. :lol:

Really, all we can do is ask nicely, and hope people get 'into' the spirit of it and at least try to go along with the orders/chain of command.

If people aren't going to follow polite orders, given in a friendly manner, all they'll do when you shout at them is to get the hump and leave, or punch you.
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Re: Thanks to all

Postby pvtjohnny » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:53 pm

dieselmonkey wrote:
pvtjohnny wrote:would firmer leadership at nco/squad leader level help with all this? more often than not, ordes are delivered in a 'if you wouldnt mind' or in a very vague way. for example, instead of being told to 'push forward on that ridge' the order could be clearer 'form up in extended line, 10 meters apart and push up onto that ridge, clear it of enemy and secure it and wait for further orders'. I for one would respond well to such control in the field and surely if people accepted this approach, it woud be easier to control a game from an organisational point of view? When there are gray areas with orders, this leaves the individual to interperate what was said or have to decide what to do (or frees them to take liberties). it's then you get people eating lunch, lonewolfing or swapping out flags with only 2 men. Tighter control is the answer for me :whip: , with seasoned ww2 airsofters who 'get' the scene oh and airsofters willing to take orders and follow them! Thing is, we all think we know how to do it best, just like any other oranised activity. just ask the england manager :rofl:


It's a nice thought, but at the end of the day, it's a game to most people. If you want to get shouted at by someone in big boots, you can either join the TA, or there are a whole range of specialist nightclubs for that sort of thing. :lol:

Really, all we can do is ask nicely, and hope people get 'into' the spirit of it and at least try to go along with the orders/chain of command.

If people aren't going to follow polite orders,given in a friendly manner, all they'll do when you shout at them is to get the hump and leave, or punch you.

:rofl: didnt mean they had to act like a csm or anything, just clearer in description. being asked to do a,b and c is easier to follow then being asked to get to c! often i've been part of a squad where the order will be go up that hill and that's the extent of it. or after completing a task, the question goes up 'what now?' but the squad leader has wandered off or is other wise engaged and you're left to your own devises! Just more comprehensive direction may help. if there's doubt then people will inevitably do what they like.
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Re: Thanks to all

Postby Mattywheels » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:22 pm

Big thanks as always to Josh and his able assistants for putting this event together and ensuring that it ran as well as it did. An interesting site, with a good mixture of cover and open ground, both sides really had to work hard for their gains...as it should be! Really noticed a change in how I approached the event, ever since Wladek's game in September I've noticed I now place a higher premium on staying alive and preserving my life! :oops:

Well played all, see you all next year! :D
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Re: Thanks to all

Postby MartinR » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:26 pm

it was mostly our own silly fault for sitting around chatting and having lunch rather than paying attention!


It is traditional that I get overrun while eating my sandwiches, happened at 'Bastogne' a couple of weeks ago and nearly happened on Saturday. It should be possible to eat in the line, but you need to designate sentries and eat in shifts (or ask HQ to pull out altogether as Chommers suggests).

wrt a couple of the other comments:

i) I think you need to mix the new guys in with people who have done it before so they can watch and learn. The vast majority of people want to fit in and do it right, and it is much easier to to that in the company of experienced people than be stuck in a separate 'raw' group.

ii) I am sure clearer orders would help, however the overall commanders and section leaders have a lot to think about and will sometimes get things wrong or be vague. No harm in asking questions and making suggestions, like 'where is the rally point'. I would be the first to admit that my leadership style tends more towards Sergeant Wilson than Panzer Meyer, and in the heat of the moment you forget even basic stuff. I even said 'over and out' on the radio. Oh the shame :oops:

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Re: Thanks to all

Postby Sgt.Heide » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:06 pm

Points we note;
-We don't like travelling in huge squads as we get discovered and in effect have less fun.
-Often pointless routes that avoid action
-Other squad members fire way to early and end up with us KIA by no fault of our own.
-At times we are being forced to go out as a sniper and a spotter, and still end up being persecuted as they think we are just a 2 man squad.
-By keeping us little guerilla groups in the day, the opposition will work more realistically by setting up checkpoints and having someone on watch when eating.


To address your points...

- In WW2, the VAST majority of movement was done in much larger numbers than is done today. The squad was the most basic and intrinsic method of movement and of fighting.
- "Pointless" routes are chosen for that very reason! If you want to approach an enemy unseen, in strength, you need to conceal yourselves! This is done at the expense of "trigger time".
- Some people have less discipline or less "bottle", it's a fact of war and leads to greener troops opening fire before the order is given.
- Sniper operations were rather rare in WW2 and, the sniper and spotter idea is a relatively new one. In WW2, PROPER snipers were solitary predators. There's not much place for them in WW2 games, as we are dealing at tactical, rather than strategic level.
- There were no "guerilla" tactics used in the Gothic line defence or assault/defence. It was a bloody, prolonged battle of attrition. Small groups of wannabe "elite snipas" shouldn't make the enemy put out sentries and be switched on, they shoud be doing that anyway as part of their standing orders.

Not having a go at you specifically but, there are a LOT of WW2 players who totally fail to grasp the mindset and are more concerned with racking up kills than they are with actually participating in the spirit of the event.
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Re: Thanks to all

Postby Sgt.Heide » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:21 pm

Wanting to play your role is to be commended but, you can't do that at the expense of the organiser's hard work, nor other player's enjoyment. I'd suggest attending some smaller, more tightly squad based WW2 events as well as the bigger games, so you can really see the benefits of working as a squad, which will reap it's own rewards at bigger games. Kind of a self fulfilling prophecy, if you know what I mean.
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Re: Thanks to all

Postby Tommy9151 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:50 pm

This was my first WWII Airsoft Game and I must say it was the best game I've ever played, great fun, no cheaters at all as far as I'm aware and no one commented and me or my friends face masks, which again I'm sorry we couldn't leave at home, but once I'm 18, I'll not be wearing it, thank you to you all for a brilliant time. :happydance:
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Re: Thanks to all

Postby dieselmonkey » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:20 pm

cptnight wrote: instead of trying to wipe peoples play style completely out of the game i feel is the wrong way to do it, i personally don't want to go back to standard airsoft as neither would most people, but neither do i want to play 100% to the role, and as previously said if you want to be commanded you join the TA.


What we're trying to do is remove the pretty standard 'open day' mentality, and replace it with a structured story that everyone can get behind and enjoy. Once people depart from the plan, and start going their own way, doing their own thing, it detracts from everyone's experience.

cptnight wrote:and as previously said if you want to be commanded you join the TA.


That's not what I said, whatsoever.
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Re: Thanks to all

Postby Universal Gunner » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:22 pm

Thanks to Josh and the other organisers/commanders particularly Nigel, Ramsay and Martin.

I had a good time and it was a good site and nice and close to me which meant I didn't have to freeze at night.

From my perspective it was a good event but I have been to better, At times it did seem closer to what I imagine airsoft would be than WW2 airsoft. On Saturday as a semi-autonomous divisional engineers section we could operate when attached to HQ but once detached from there we weren't really attached anywhere else and with no radio were left to sit around and eventually improvise a suicide bomb at CP6 while asking anyone who passed through to obtain instructions for us which seemed to consist of stay where you are. Perhaps the complete lack of any engineering tasks other than to defuse the mines in the morning (not that anyone seemed overly concerned that they were there) on the Saturday didn't help. We did offer to repair the armoured car from the damage it had taken but that offer was spurned only for it to be destroyed on its next joy ride past the enemy. Eventually we attached ourselves to Baker Company and the day picked up under Ramsay's direct control.

On Sunday aside from the first part of the morning and the blowing up of the AT guns I should have stayed in bed. The day for me seemed to consist of a German CP in the apparently out of bounds area; bad map reading; a big thing being made about mines not having been cleared in a different area to that which we were told we were playing in; a hissy fit because we outflanked the German attack and pushed them back to their CP; returning to our original positions at Lima which everyone knew were never going to be attacked; then being told to go to CP3 which had already been cleared away and finally bored of hearing two battles going on in separate directions and realising that it was nearly endex we made our way to the battle by CP6 just in time for the whistle to be blown.

Positive
Some good new players who clearly have the right attitude
Great site
Good props

Negative
Too many lone wolves whether singular or groups who don't seem to want to be part of a big picture.
Too much sitting and chatting at CPs (I agree with Martin R unless scheduled into the game I think meal breaks should be strictly controlled and taken "in character") or wandering around in groups out for a Sunday stroll.
Much clearer rules and roles for vehicles
Bad C3I I am more than happy to sit around doing nothing all day and don''t mind if I don't fire my gun but only if that is what is required and not because I have been forgotten and not just so everyone else can have a great game somewhere else.

I agree with Pvt Johnny/Sgt Heide I think everyone should be trying to fit into the mind set that you are an ordinary WW2 soldier and acting as part of a squad not Rambo and his mates. We don't do this all the time so reminders of how to fan out and approach and what to do when an objective has been achieved ie set defensive positions etc need to be given. I am not sure why you would want to do WW2 airsoft if you don't want to enter into that part of it. Each section should be collecting and passing information on to HQ so that the whole side should benefit. Radios or runners or carrier pigeons the most important thing is information - playing on your own seems to me to be missing the point.
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Re: Thanks to all

Postby Ramsay00105 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:37 pm

Apologies for not appearing on Sunday. Nasty cold started once I was home Saturday night and has continued through today. If it is not a cold it must have been the effects of the really thick smoke cloud we tried to attack through on Saturday. I have been a snotty mess and in no state to try to give orders.

My thanks to all in Baker on Saturday who put up with my leadership into several rounds of annihilation.
For a section that was mostly new to WWII airsoft you pulled together really well and put in some good co-ordinated attacks. Though I think some lessons about taking cover were learned. You put up well understanding that we would not chase down every German we saw and would try to achieve our given objective.
We did put out a stag while eating at CP 6 and so were better placed when the far side of the CP was bumped by 2 lost souls. I was impressed by one of our section adjusting the fire of the MG on the armoured jeep with good use of a fire control order. So thanks to all of you again and I hope to see you at events in future. In particular thanks for proving to us that Craig is not unique and that there are others out there like him. :)
The site was excellent and deserves to get used again in the future. In one day it seems I only saw a small part of it.
My frustrations if anything were not to do with my section but with the inability of some to use the maps they were given and the result that long radio messages went back and forth as people tried to locate themselves. Map reading is a basic military skill particularly if you are a commander and needs to be practiced. My section waited several times for tasking while Nigel had to sort out where someone was.
Regarding cptnights comments above. His type of behind the lines sneaking has a place. I suggest it is with the rules amendment that you have to use a noisy weapon and have only one life and no regens. Only then will you really appreciate that the sort of high risk tactic you suggest would require a very special sort of person to try it in real life.
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Re: Thanks to all

Postby pvtjohnny » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:33 pm

"Regarding cptnights comments above. His type of behind the lines sneaking has a place. I suggest it is with the rules amendment that you have to use a noisy weapon and have only one life and no regens. Only then will you really appreciate that the sort of high risk tactic you suggest would require a very special sort of person to try it in real life.

I like this idea!! :good: a lone sniper with objectives, low ammo and one life would be most excellent!
There seems to be a division with peoples expectations from games. Is it worth reflecting on Joshs' opening statement at every game. I cant quote verbatum but it goes a little like this 'this is not an open day skirmish, it is aww2 experience with the emphasis on roleplay and period emersion. Anyone expecting anything other can be refunded' (or something like that). I admit to having 'lonewolfed' at games and yes, you can get some joy playing this way however, i find i get involved in far more meaningful contacts when in squad. with fire and move tactics, protecting oppo's, helping to push on stalled attacks or defending an area and recovering your wounded mates. far more rewarding if done well. :good: Kills are cool but completing objectives well and in the ww2 stylee is better
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Re: Thanks to all

Postby Ian » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:53 pm

Thanks josh and team, had a great time on what was a great site. :good:
Yer there was a few issues as been 'mentioned' in above posts but mistakes were made on both sides, but from what I've read almost all those can be put down to people not listening at briefings main and sub unit. Gunman games always have high numbers of players of all experience's, some get the vibe others take time to get it, I've been doing this for 4 years and still make mistakes in the heat of play, new players can't be expected to get it straight away. I take the veiw that without the new players we will end up with clicky 10-20 side games and the hobby fades away. But hey ho that's play war, all the best layed plans go out the window when the battle starts.
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Re: Thanks to all

Postby Gunman » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:05 pm

Cheers guys and great feedback.
My lack of knowledge of the site was my first concern and the CPs were placed far enough apart so that they could be taken and held with enough time to be re-enforced. I believe we got that bit spot on and let’s face it, the site and the use of vehicles really made the event. Also with 40 new players, there were a lot of guys that needed to pick up the game and find out what we wanted out of them. A brief is never enough and leading by example is a massive part of it. I think everyone bar a few really did get it! It was amazing to watch the units move around be used tactically in the field by commanders that were out of the fight and only using maps to move the troops around.

My gripes can only be placed on my shoulders! I should have included a task list (apologies to Charlie and Martin) for the Allied engineers rather than expecting them to be given tasks organically. Lads, you’re awesome and with the addition of Vickers who plays engineer at most of the events, I dropped a ball there! A promise to all, I will not run another game without a task list, this was the first time in experimenting with organic tasks in a battle and it didn’t work. You don’t know if you don’t try.
Also, not being in the field and running my own game was a mistake, I need to be inside these events from start to finish (again, the first and last time).
Guys that like the silent action, Ramsey is right and I have posted in the organisers section that I will find a roll for the few guys that like to work alone, but I will make this clear, No one goes to war alone and I will not stand for anyone playing out of the spirit of the game.

Most of the field are or were completely oblivious to any issues in the field at all as we try very hard to keep them contained and deal with them so know one has to have their event tarnished. Again, if I was in the field, any issue would have been dealt with by me on the spot and not left until the end of the event.

The Allied command needed a second (which was supposed to be me)to help run the side which may have found guys waiting for the Allied OC to give out orders. This is not an excuse as this is my business, but I was on standby for a family emergency and may have needed to leave the site. I have NOT left a game in 20 years of running events and thank fully still haven’t.

A massive thank you has to go out to my command and admin staff for being flexible and able to roll with the changes we had to make and to all of you, the players from making this weekend still an epic battle weekend, with all the drama that comes with it.
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Re: Thanks to all

Postby Sgt.Heide » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:10 pm

Ian wrote: I take the veiw that without the new players we will end up with clicky 10-20 side games and the hobby fades away. But hey ho that's play war, all the best layed plans go out the window when the battle starts.


Don't forget, that long before 100+ player games, this hobby started with 20 a side and, (I'm certain that many will agree with me!) none of those games have been "clicky". I've seen more clickiness at bigger games to be honest, when groups of people think the game revolves around them and their inability to fit in with what the event is actually about but, catered for in order to turn a buck.
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