Post-game discussion of rifle only concept

A Wladek game to be held at Grange Farm, Leicester
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Joseph Porta
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Post-game discussion of rifle only concept

Postby Joseph Porta » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:37 am

Inspireing stuff! Great game looking at the feedback.
From an organizing point of veiw,
Whilst i cant make the fuhrer game rifle only, i would prefer a heavier weight of rifles in game.
At the borzyn game i used my k98 on 134 gas and got 280-300 fps, as there was no wind in the tunnels i got a lot of hits on target. The tunnels are a great enviroment for sub 350 rifles.
Can anyone who attended this game who is coming to fuhrer game please bring rifles (and aeg in case you dont like it) ill try and see the best way to help rifle use. ( low ammo limits for aeg except support guns is already planned) an accurate team of rifles could lock down a tunnel very well indeed,good tactics can make rifles very effective, and there are 3 fairly organized teams attending.
Ill post more tonight, im on a phone at the mo, gives me something to think about.
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Re: A Grand Day Out!

Postby Wladek » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:05 am

I think it is tricky Porta, I have been saying at games for as long as I have run them that 'rifles are preferred' and if it has made a difference, it has been marginal. Which is why we decided the only way to do it was to say 'Rifles only', with the hope that with only these weapons the style and feel of play would change, and it felt like it did.

At the end of the day all it would have taken to change this balance, would have been a couple of SMGs. A couple of those, with some 'tightbore' and 'uber hop' fitted and the whole thing would have crumbled down. I have just not yet seen rifles requests work. ~It was suggested that a couple of SMGs would have been OK 'in the right hands', and this is right. a couple of 'picked men' to lead, with their SMGs would be fine. but they have to be picked. To make sure that they get the style and the ethos of this 'riflestyle'. And this is why requesting rifles does not work (IMAO), because those who do 'get it/want it' will already come with rifles, those that don't/don't-have-a-rifle will still come with SMGs. If only a couple of those with SMGs are not on the same wavelength, then it all goes up the spout.

'We' will have rifles, because we are weird and don't have anything else. But I think games that want to bring the Riflestyle into it have to, by there very nature, be more prescriptive.

Too late for the Tunnels game, but nonetheless my thought are:
Ammo
Ammo needs to be properly restricted. real steal is definitely the way forward, I am convinced of it now, by which I mean 100 rounds.
Then:
Disincentive
Make SMGs less effective and more suited to their role. Hop down, mixed weight ammo or something.
And/Or
Limit
Limit the number of SMGs allowed on a player basis (1 per 12 booked players, Rifles only, a single 'team' of 4 per side)
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Re: A Grand Day Out!

Postby Yith » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:07 am

Porta, I hate to say it, but really to get the effect we had at Eagles, the only way to go is ban anything other than rifles.

The difference in the game play was massive... a few SMGs would have changed it completely. It's a crying shame you couldn't be there to see!
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Re: A Grand Day Out!

Postby marsha » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:03 pm

The ammo limits worked well it really made you think when not to shoot
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Re: A Grand Day Out!

Postby Simon » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:49 pm

purely thinking out loud and as a thought only.

could peoples load out be used to specify their role.

I havent run an airsoft/WW2 event so the following maybe naive.

But SMG's were originally used as a "shock" weapons and were used by assaulting troops,so the commanding office would form his units based upon the weapons his troops were carrying, so all those with SMG were used in assault duties such as taking a position. and rifles were used for defensive duties.

eg. 20 people on a team, 12 rifles - 8 smgs. so an assault unit of 8 and two defensive units of 6 a piece (this would obviously vary based upon numbers). if people acknowledged at point of registration their specified their weapon choice at the same time as denoting whether they were allied or axis, the scenarios could be worked out based upon the weapons options each side have at their desposal. thinking the same way some of the rules for mg34 or browning work, such as only being fired in the prone position or as a fixed emplacement.

the idea of the above is people pick their weapons based upon the role they like to play (generalisation but mostly true) so when selecting which side they are on and their weapon choice they know what role they will be fulfilling.

Defending troops with rifles should have range and accuracy on their side (presumably), while the assaulting troops would have rate of fire as an advantage.
even using the medic rule. so 3 deaths/hits for rifle users before they have to return to respawn, 1 or 2 for smg users.

again the above is just a thought, please do take it as me telling the organisers how to do their job :oops:
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Re: A Grand Day Out!

Postby dadio » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:04 pm

my feeling on mixing weapons but a predominantly rifle feel would have to have smg's in the hands of C O's and only used to break a stalemate .maybe a support weapon to be stormed as an exercise in game but not as a free to move role and not in constant play or maybe only to protect a teams command centre for the day rather than a dont attack rule .or another idea may be to rotate the smg role round the players that want it through the day.
for the fuhrer game its a bit late in the day and that late in the war there would have been a higher number of automatics.
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Re: A Grand Day Out!

Postby Universal Gunner » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:28 pm

I think it is down to ammo limits and medic rules.

I don't have a problem with SMGs or LMGs if as has already been suggested they are kept to reduced numbers and there if they have real ammo limits like the rifles do. Say 6*30 magazines - 180 rounds fair enough but not per life, make that per morning or day or controlled at least. Then there would be the need to get closer, no more speculative ranging shots etc. If I'm out with a Thompson and know I've only got a 180 rounds my bursts are going to be very short and more than likely semi-auto will be used instead.

Similarly I'd one day like to see a proper section including a Bren Gun but with the ammuntion spread around the section. The gunner could say carry 200 and then everyone else another 60-100 with some control of when they are handed to the gunner. If a section has to genuinely support the support gunner as well as being supported by him it could make things much more interesting.

Just my thoughts anyway.

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Re: A Grand Day Out!

Postby Yith » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:33 pm

Thing is also the switch from rifles only to including SMGs will have other effects we'd not considered before.

Sound - having nearly all bolt actions at the event meant it was a VERY quiet one. The result, when someone fired an AEG it really got noticed.

When the only bbs coming at you are single ones then you become more attuned to feeling when they hit, this is a very good thing as often at other times it seems that some people only seem to notice when multiple bbs hit them. Add in SMGs and that could be affected in a bad way.

In addition when firing single bbs with bolt actions, you have to use your sights rather than leading the flow of bbs onto a target as you go. Changing wind can make it very hard to hit when there's a second or two between shots.

Of course if we use SMGs then I'd actually say they want to be real steel ammo restrictions per mag AND used semi auto. Semi being the recommended way to fire them. No full-auto blazing like a 30s gangster.

See the British Army 1942 training manual http://www.scribd.com/doc/32609984/Tomm ... ne-Carbine
Lesson 2.4 : "Because of the speed with which single rounds can be fired, the greater accuracy obtained by this method and the need for economy of ammunition, single-round firing should be employed whenever possible. Bursts should be reserved for extreme emergencies, and, when used, should be of two or three rounds only."

Also, with only bolt actions with slow recocking times, actual "hand-to-hand" fighting becomes much more important when you get up close.
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Re: A Grand Day Out!

Postby MartinR » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:12 pm

Defending troops with rifles should have range and accuracy on their side (presumably), while the assaulting troops would have rate of fire as an advantage.


In real life perhaps, but in Airsoft they are all doing 350 fps-ish, and having been on the wrong end of a 'defending rifles vs SMG toting assault' the blazing SMGs win every time.

I'm sure there are all sorts of interesting weapon combos you could come up with, and maybe one day we'll have a 'real TO&E' game, but just due to the nature of Airsoft weapons, their actual game effects will be different to real life.

As Charlie says, the simplest way to go is stringent ammo limits and medic rules. Play with 'one hit and you are out' and real steel ammo limits for the whole day, and you are going to get a very different experience to a two minute regen and 600 rounds per life. It is also partly about how the game is structured and what its overall aim is.

I would certainly be up for another rifles only game, or a rifles + one automatic weapon per section game or whatever but the more restrictions you make the harder it is for players to take part and if your scenario is aimed at a BIG game, that can be a problem in itself.

Anyway, interesting discussion. Maybe warrants a seperate thread?

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Re: A Grand Day Out!

Postby Lardassmonkey » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:14 pm

I'd be neverous about including SMGs in this sort of game, as Wladek says it doesn't take alot to alter the feel of the entire event. If they were to be included I'd say only in the hands of selected squad leaders. That way not only do you ensure you have the right person using them but also it limits their use as the squad leader would be often otherwise occupied by issuing orders rather than fighting. the only time they would use their weapon would be during crutical points in a breakthrough or defence. I would still limite them to real steel ammo limits both in overall capacity and mags size. I probably wouldn't specify semi-auto only but advise that full auto was for emergencies only and hope the limited ammo and the players own decision making would make them follow suit.

I would be much more supportive of having MGs in the game though. All armies based their rifle squads around MGs so it would be fitting to include them. Like Charlie says the ammo should still be very limited though and spead between the squad members. I would suggest real steel limits on mags too so that riflemen have a chance to hit back during changes. If its a belt fed MG (ie high cap) then they could be limited to 100 rounds or so before a change. Perhaps an enforced barrel change due to the high rate of fire to provide gaps between firing if no actual reload is needed. The MG should also be under the direct control of the commander as well so make sure it is only used when needed- it could even be left at HQ at some points to conserve ammunition.
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Re: A Grand Day Out!

Postby Joseph Porta » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:21 pm

Alll these ideas are great, and its nice to see players suggesting them, so i dont ruin craigs thread ill start a rifles/ ammo topic in fuhrer section at home tonight. Sorry if its gone of topic craig, such a good game and good players feedback is giving me all kinds of ideas.
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Re: A Grand Day Out!

Postby Joseph Porta » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:28 pm

Rich , tinys mg42 uses 250 rd high caps for that very reason, it takes 30 seconds to refill the mag, that simulates belt and barrel changes, also i like the issueing of all ammo in small 30 rd boxes, reloading shpuld take time for smgs. Maybe shock horry, ban speedloaders, just ideas im having
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Re: A Grand Day Out!

Postby Boshman » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:20 pm

I agree with Rich with regards to the inclusions of MG's in either static of mobile roles.

As a static HMG, have plently of ammo but forced stoppages every 100 rounds or so. This can provide a good in-game objectives and means the postions would need to be outflanked, rushed during a reload, or the gunners sniped from a distance. All adding to the realism.

In a mobile LMG role, limited Ammo with ammo spread around the rest of the squad. Gunner carries say 200 rounds (equivilent to 2x 50 round assault drums and 1x100 round link belt). Assistant gunner carries 2x300 round ammo boxes, and each squad member carry 100 rounds each which they must bring to the MG position or have the assistance gunner collect from them as required.

Also agree with others re SMG's for squad leaders only, ideally sub 300fps with hop-off and with real-steel ammo limits. Used on full-auto only on final assaults or last-ditch defense. Squad leaders should be focused on giving orders, directing the squad and MG rather than doing the shooting themselves.

TBH,a pistol and harsh language should really be all a squad leader needs! from being CO at a couple of games now, I have found that when your own personal firepower is actually pretty ineffective other that for self defense then you are much more inclined to forget about getting kills and just focus on tactics and controlling your squad!
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Re: A Grand Day Out!

Postby dadio » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:07 pm

the medic rule and ammo limit may be worth trying at a more inclusive game ,my guess is that the fear of death and inability to expend ammo liberally could really make a huge difference alone.not having you'r own ammo but having to request it meant that there could be no cheating and sneaky reloading from you'r own supply that i've seen at some games when one person may seem to have far greater magazine capacity that he should. personally i do like auto weapons but fully agree they must be restricted,like the idea of a section all carrying ammo for a support weapon and having to supply it when needed.
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m1a1 Thompson,sten mk2,mp40,stg44,sterling,mk2 bren gun,lee Enfield no4 mk1,Mauser Kar98, Walther ppk,smith and Weston m10 and Mauser m712
Give me a big enough hammer and a place to stand and I could fix the world.
i'll kill a man in a fair fight or if i think he's going to start a fair fight or over a woman or.......
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Re: A Grand Day Out!

Postby prideofengland » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:48 pm

dadio wrote:. ,like the idea of a section all carrying ammo for a support weapon and having to supply it when needed.


Ditto, good to see the game provoked more thought on how to improve games :good:
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