What are these Rifle Games all About?

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What are these Rifle Games all About?

Postby Wladek » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:49 am

Some people are put of by a game using only rifles, whether they feel that the game will play like a field full of snipers spend the day shooting at one another pointlessly, or that such a game but by necessity be some form of elite, re-enactor level, real steel, day of boredom. The truth is such events have proved to be anything but.

Part of the fun of playing with rifles is that you do not have the option to just stay crouching behind a bush, shooting occasional shots, all day. You have an objective to gain and there are no designated 'assault troops'. You will have to close with the enemy, or you will have to lay down enough fire to keep an assault away. What did surprise me in playing these games is that the 'defensive multiplier' was greatly reduced.

By this I mean that if one side was defending against an attacker, the odds did not automatically sit with the defender. In many ways the attacker 'moving' provided them with an advantage over stationary defenders. which is another fun thing about these games: You get to use fire and maneuver so much more. You feel like you are advancing in stages, or holding a line, as part of a unit - regardless of if you are victorious or not. With the Support Weapons in play, their positioning will be critical to holding a position.

Real Steel (to use a very general and vague concept) is also something which fits so well into a rifle game, so well in fact that it doesn't even need to be a rule. The logic behind the "3-1" airsoft ratio of ammo is that it takes 3bbs to 'recreate' the effect of a bullet - given inaccuracies of weapons, and toughness of foliage. This is just simply not the case with a bolt action rifle. You cannot walk your shots, nor fire more 'through the branches' to make sure of effect.
The only time such actions are applicable is with Semi-automatic rifles, which can for this reason dominate the field.

We don't want there to be a 'good weapon/bad weapon', but nor do we want to be pretending Semi-Automatics are Bolt Action rifles. Such a weapon has an advantage - in a tight squeeze you can put down a lot of fire power. But these weapons also had a disadvantage - that firepower would run out fast. This disadvantage is simply not present if one is using a 100, or even 30 round magazine. So we limit the size of these magazines, to something where rapid fire is going to leave you vulnerable, fast. It is a case of weighing up both options, and making a call, which adds no end to the fun.

That, in a nutshell, is why we run these rifles games: Not because they are more "realistic", or because they give a slower pace, or are more gritty and hardcore, but because they are fun. The game becomes, not about just shooting things, but about tension and character, tactics and perfect moments that stick in the memory. If you haven't tried one before, then give it a shot [sic], you will not be disappointed.
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Re: What are these Rifle Games all About?

Postby Nurglitch » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:59 am

This, however, seems to heavily distort the real nature of WWII battlefield being closer to 1915 than to 1944. WWII infantry squad worked as an extension and bodyguard of a squad support weapon, giving it a covering fire when it moved and in turn advancing under its protection. Assault weapons, like SMGs also had their place.

I do absolutely get how outmatched the rifles are against the BLAAAART guns in normal skirmish and how big the 500fps problems are. Would an answer lie in weakening SMGs? Even driving them as low as 100fps? Then they would work as close assault weapons only and would need to be sheparded by rifles and support weapons.
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Re: What are these Rifle Games all About?

Postby Wladek » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:08 pm

It has all been discussed, from hop changing, to much lower fps, to limiting their ammo so they are only useful in a short burst of fire, but the simplest way is to just use rifles and support weapons. Then you get the concentration on, and importance of, a Machine Gun coupled with the movement - and inconvenience - of the rifle.

I have used an SMG 'in the style' of an assault weapon, hanging back until needed in an assault, and am happy to. But most people would feel disappointed if they only got a handful of chances to engage during assaults/counter assaults. With rifles across the board everyone gets a chance to be involved all day.

To be honest I never have, nor will, get the need for 500 fps. I have used a low power bolt action at open days and still had more fun with it then when using a high-powered rifle - where I spent the whole day worrying about engagement range rather than enjoying it. However some people like them, so we happily cater for them.
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Re: What are these Rifle Games all About?

Postby dadio » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:17 pm

cant wait for this,will book on soon.as i went to the last one i can say from experience that this will work well, for those on the fence ,well just come and see ,it has a different flavor to games with smg's and looses none of the fun and there will be a squad support weapon as well. i do a support role a lot but not for this, it's a rifle for sure .just have to decide on allied or german now.
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Re: What are these Rifle Games all About?

Postby Nurglitch » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:32 pm

Wladek wrote:I have used an SMG 'in the style' of an assault weapon, hanging back until needed in an assault, and am happy to. But most people would feel disappointed if they only got a handful of chances to engage during assaults/counter assaults.


Surely one shouldn't be disappointed with consequences of their own choice? If the limit on SMGs was 100fps and on rifles 350fps the advantages and disadvantages of each would be fairly obvious. You make a choice, you live with the consequences :)

Wladek wrote:With rifles across the board everyone gets a chance to be involved all day.


Fun-wise, yes. But simulation of a WWII battlefield suffers as a result. A matter of priorities I guess.

Wladek wrote:To be honest I never have, nor will, get the need for 500 fps. I have used a low power bolt action at open days and still had more fun with it then when using a high-powered rifle - where I spent the whole day worrying about engagement range rather than enjoying it.


A rifle is a very expensive toy. I'll get to use it, in its entire lifetime, no more than some 15 times in a WWII skirmish. Probably some 100 or close to that in blaaaart games. The disadvantage of going with 1 shot weapon against a spam weapon with the same range is obvious. 500fps gives you a range advantage and a clear separate role on a battlefield, instead of being just another ablative shield for the "real" damage dealers with their 1bln bullet snail mags. It also eliminates something that annoys me no end, namely having to use ballistic fire (not a slight correction, but firing like a mortar, 45deg) at fairly close ranges.
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Re: What are these Rifle Games all About?

Postby Wladek » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:00 pm

Nurglitch wrote:
Wladek wrote:With rifles across the board everyone gets a chance to be involved all day.


Fun-wise, yes. But simulation of a WWII battlefield suffers as a result. A matter of priorities I guess.


Actually no, on the level and size that we play at it creates the best 'simulation' out there that I have yet experienced in WWII airsoft. If you think differently after the game, then let us know. We do alter things - such as including automatic support weapons - in response to feedback.
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Re: What are these Rifle Games all About?

Postby Lardassmonkey » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:10 pm

But simulation of a WWII battlefield suffers as a result. A matter of priorities I guess.


Not really. The vast majority of soldiers in WWII were equipped with rifles and it was no uncommon for a squad to have no SMG at all, even later in the war. SMGs were relatively uncommon except in certain specialised units.

A rifle is a very expensive toy. I'll get to use it, in its entire lifetime, no more than some 15 times in a WWII skirmish. Probably some 100 or close to that in blaaaart games. The disadvantage of going with 1 shot weapon against a spam weapon with the same range is obvious. 500fps gives you a range advantage and a clear separate role on a battlefield, instead of being just another ablative shield for the "real" damage dealers with their 1bln bullet snail mags. It also eliminates something that annoys me no end, namely having to use ballistic fire (not a slight correction, but firing like a mortar, 45deg) at fairly close ranges.


Nobody is saying you need to detune it for open days, or even this event as Wladek is allowing 500fps rifle. It is entirely your choice, as long as you follow the rules.

However as someone who has played with rifles for a long time I can whole heartly agree the fun of using a sub 350 rifle overides any possible advantage a high powered rifle has. That goes for open days as well as WWII- picking off BB hosers with a bolt action doing 330fps is hugely satisfying and not that hard to do considering the spacial awareness of the average airsofter. In WWII it just makes more sense on so many levels and it also gets you closer for bayonet kills. :twisted:
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Re: What are these Rifle Games all About?

Postby dadio » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:24 pm

i never felt the need for extra range in the games i played with rifles and one of them is only 315fps! it sounds a little worrying but the fun goes to the sub 350fps rifle in these games.
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Re: What are these Rifle Games all About?

Postby Nurglitch » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:34 pm

Lardassmonkey wrote:Not really. The vast majority of soldiers in WWII were equipped with rifles and it was no uncommon for a squad to have no SMG at all, even later in the war. SMGs were relatively uncommon except in certain specialised units.


That's not really borne out by the numbers. Rifles were in majority but SMGs were nowhere as rare as you are saying. 1.5mln Stg 44 and MP 40 were built. British, with an army smaller than Wehrmacht, built something like 4mln Stens of all variants. British para units had exactly as many Stens as Lee Enfields with choice between them based on the mission character. Towards 1945 the Polish NSZ resistance fighters were throwing Kar 98k away as they were obsolete and SMGs and/or assault rifles were plentiful and easy to acquire. The Soviets built above 5mln Ppsz and ran whole assault platoons equipped exclusively with them. WWII is a transitional period of moving from WWI paradigm of long range precise fire to a modern paradigm of close to mid range volume and suppression fire. Depicting it in WWI terms only is not very accurate. On a "standard" unit level SMGs were not plentiful, but there wasn't really a platoon without them.

Lardassmonkey wrote:Nobody is saying you need to detune it for open days, or even this event as Wladek is allowing 500fps rifle.


I wasn't disputing that :) I was merely replying to Wladek wondering why would anyone use an 500fps rifle :)




Obviously all I'm saying about airsoft SMGs and rifle only games is just theoretical musing. I think 100fps SMGs would work well, but it requires proof. When I get a Sten I'll try to fit it with a weak spring and see how it works.
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Re: What are these Rifle Games all About?

Postby prideofengland » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:36 pm

Wladek wrote:That, in a nutshell, is why we run these rifles games: Not because they are more "realistic", or because they give a slower pace, or are more gritty and hardcore, but because they are fun. The game becomes, not about just shooting things, but about tension and character, tactics and perfect moments that stick in the memory. If you haven't tried one before, then give it a shot [sic], you will not be disappointed.


"more fun" Ill certainly second that, although I think you could put an argument for more realistic if you chose, and as someone who has recently moved from 500fps to sub 350 fps rifle I have to say that its definately the way forward if you are able. Looking forward to having MG's in the mix this time, I think we will be cursing them at times - perhaps as a real rifleman would, but as a game experience - the fear they will create and the need for teamwork to overcome them should make it all a positive experience. :happyclap:
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Re: What are these Rifle Games all About?

Postby Wladek » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:39 pm

here is nothing wrong with using SMGs, and using them as they are designed to be used and played with, but all other games allow them to be used, for these couple of Rifles Games it creates a definite change of feel and pace. I am certainly not saying they should be removed from everything, far from it.
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Re: What are these Rifle Games all About?

Postby Nurglitch » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:16 pm

I don't have an axe to grind here, I'm just trying to find out a way of representing them in their true tactical role :) When SMGs and rifles have the same energy the SMGs have an advantage they did not really enjoy.
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Re: What are these Rifle Games all About?

Postby Wladek » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:23 pm

It tends to be a bit of a red herring the power actually. At the ranges we play over the SMG generally has the same range, and even at longer ranges those slight breezes make use of the high powered rifles a bit tricky.

At other games then yes it is fun, to keep your two SMGs for the close up work whilst the rifles advance in pairs covering the ground. It's all good, just good for other games :D .
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Re: What are these Rifle Games all About?

Postby Yith » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:38 pm

In most armies in WWII the SMGs were reserved for the commanders of squads and above. In these cases they would usually be used as a self defense weapon, not as an assault weapon. After all the commander's job is to command, not to shoot. So a common unit would have very little full-auto fire except for the squad automatic weapon or support weapon.

Now obviously there were exceptions to this, commandos, soviet smg companies, etc... but those sorts of units are already heavily catered for in other games.

Another effect often forgotten about when switching down to 350fps from 500fps (admittedly only on spring rifles) is the reduction in the force required to cock the weapon. At 350fps you are completely capable of cocking a rifle just like a real one and when you're using it in a rifleman mode then this counters the reduction in range very nicely indeed.

Personally I'm not a good enough shot to take advantage of the 500fps rifle anyway... also there's a lot more to making a rifle accurate than just increasing fps. In fact having "accurized" my SMLE by ensuring things like the barrel being straight and the sights set up properly. I can say I can hit a damn sight more with it at 350fps than I ever could with my old No4 that ran at 500fps.
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Re: What are these Rifle Games all About?

Postby CHThree » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:47 pm

For an in depth discussion on "rifles only" look here:

viewtopic.php?f=214&t=15823
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