Thoughts about the game mechanics

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Nurglitch
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Thoughts about the game mechanics

Postby Nurglitch » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:45 am

The format of rifle vs rifle with no auto fire works great. I now better understand the objections against SMGs. Hop on or off, or even power lowered to 100fps, SMGs would still dominate the city fight. As it was the rifle only format forced a very different kind of game with great emphasis on maneuver, concealment and marksmanship. The Sunday city fight was great, an experience incomparable to an Open Day blaaartfest.

I must say it did come as a shock on Saturday. My rifle couldn't hit a barn (I've had big time trouble with it) and the level of marksmanship of all the rest of the guys was insane. All my Open Days instincts worked against me, stuff that would work there was suicidal at Chambois. Time and time again I was hit not knowing from where, usually with the first shot. You people can aim! By Sunday I have adjusted, the learning curve becomes easy after a while. Funny how my hearing had sharpened. I could now hear the sound of springers firing, locate the general source of incoming fire, get the general idea of what was going on by people's shouts. I think only by Sunday I stopped being useless as a team member, both because my rifle problems have been partially resolved (thanks, Yith!), partly because I adapted to the format and learned to aim properly.

One thing though - the firefights were great fun when similar weapons were matched. Going with a bolt action against an AEG rifle is no fun at all. It doesn't really differ in any way from an SMG firing on single, the disadvantage of bolt action is exactly the same. Whilst at Chambois the count of AEGs per side was pretty much equal, I can see a possibility of a completely unfair game between (for example) Germans armed with Kar98k rifles and Americans armed with AEG Garands and M1s. I think it's more "bolt-action only" that worked so well than "rifle only".


The ammo and medic rules worked very well. The thing I loved the most was the hit taking mechanics, the shouts, curses and calling for medic. Adds a lot to the immersion.
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Re: Thoughts about the game mechanics

Postby HeadShot » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:01 am

I think the only way around the semi auto rifle issue is to ensure magazine ammo limits are adhered to. Someone with a 70 round mag should simulate a mag change every 10 shot or so.

Having said that, I got pretty good at cycling the bolt on the K98 and certainly found that I was sometimes the one with some ammo left after the semi-auto firers had been a bit trigger happy.

The main issue around low ammo games is the quality and effectiveness of manoeuvring in small groups. On your own it's pointless, in a group of three or more it makes things much easier. When Lardy and I tried to take on the left flank of the buildings on Sunday we were repeatedly hammered by the ease of the allies moving positions internally leaving us with few options. I believe you slotted me in the head in the final attempt!
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Re: Thoughts about the game mechanics

Postby Wladek » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:23 am

In regard to the Semi-automatics: yes, it has been discussed amongst us at length.

If bolt action rifles were readily available and inexpensive it would be great. Unfortunately they are not. However limiting their magazines to smaller almost 'real steel' really does work. Watching the French forces have to constantly change their magazines after every 8-10 shots you can see how cumbersome it quickly becomes if they are trigger happy.

As you see we only managed to get 15 people, limiting it to bolt action rifles only would, inevitably, cut that number down even further with those who do not have one being unable to attend.

Also that brings up another person who I have as yet very inconsiderately forgotten to publicly thank: Josh at Gunman. As we were stepping in at a late hour to where the CiA game was he let us have a very good rate on hiring the site for the weekend. If he had not done this, then we would not have been able to cover the site costs with the number of players that booked on. So, thanks to Josh.
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Re: Thoughts about the game mechanics

Postby Oligoscenic » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:26 am

I agree about the Garands, it can give an advantage, but does still force you to really watch the ammo...... The low ammo plus my hand loading of mags led to considerable time spent hiding behind cover cursing my gun! I still died many times though......... !

Sunday really showcased the gulf between different styles of games, Wladek and Lipton always put a lot of effort into writing their scenarios and that does make an impact too. The attitude and playing style of the players was sterling and you could believe you were really there. I have only ever played with a rile so am so used to being so heavily outgunned and not being able to play in that fire and manoever style that stood out at the weekend. I am one of the advocates for pushing the rifles and am for one sad that Craig and Dean are now a bit fed up of running games as they really did try and be inclusive at this one and still people didn't come along!

The accuracy achieved was spectacular to, on Sunday we had a 'room of death' where when entered Headshot shot us!! With that extra second or two available due to the nature of fighting with rifles you had the chance to aim properly!! I had a proud Lardy death when I pinged his helmet from a distance far enough to shock me and probably him as well!!

It's telling that the people who see this as controversial haven't either been or considered this game style. I refuse to see it as elitist in any sense as yes rifles may be marginally more expensive but even a VSR with a little camouflage would have been fine as it is about the dynamics of bolt action and player immersion rather than (imo atm) any massively restrictive gun limitations. Wood effect rifle and basic kit Allied or German would have given a good sillouhete that wouldn't have detracted anything really from the game. I say this as Josh had offered his rental rifles for this game to enable those without a rifle to participate. Wladek is a very nice person who comes accross as opinionated but as those who have attended his and Deans games can surely attest he is very gentlemanly to a fault.
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Re: Thoughts about the game mechanics

Postby Yith » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:02 am

Nurglitch wrote:You people can aim!


In my case it's more a case that I spent some time making sure my sights and barrel are set up correctly.

After getting my SMLE completed and finding I couldn't hit a barn door with it, I spent a day "accurising" it. First off I very carefully put electrical tape on the inner barrel to centre it in the outer barrel. This needs to be very accurately done. A fraction of a millimetre can mean the difference between hitting and not hitting your target. Even a few millimeters in length of electrical tape matters.

Then once that was done I moved on to sorting out the sights. On my SMLE, there was no windage to adjust, but with the barrel centred that was no issue anyway. However adjusting the height of the foresight was key.

If you are failing to hit your target then this needs to be done on your rifle. Simple. Don't even begin to think that "aiming off" will help. It does not work. Unlike with an AEG, you can't lead your shots on to your target. You don't get a ranging shot.

Sort your barrel centering and sights out and your fps or hop won't matter a toss.

At least that's my experience...
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Re: Thoughts about the game mechanics

Postby Yith » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:08 am

Secondly...

I remember my first ever experience with combat games was paintball in the early 90s. At the time the site we went to only had pump action guns with 10 round magazines. Later on they moved to semi-auto guns and hoppers of 100 balls.

When they did this I remember thinking that the earlier style of play was a lot more fun, basically because it was a lot harder to hit things and the frantic moments of mag changes got your adrenaline pumping.

Well it's much the same here. "Less is More". Reducing the ease with which you can get kills, requiring you to think a lot more before shooting. Actually having to aim.

It's just so, so much more fun that plastering bbs at your enemy and walking your fire.
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Re: Thoughts about the game mechanics

Postby Yith » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:22 am

Nurglitch wrote: stuff that would work there was suicidal at Chambois.


Actually in that initial assault I found much the same thing.

The first few tries failed spectacularly. We tried moving slowly covering each other, flanking, etc. Only to be taken out by accurate hits from hidden defenders.

When we did finally break through it was with a silent charge, all together into the same area, which brought us to the rear of the enemy before they had chance to respond and we were able to locate them and shoot them before they could bring their rifles to bear on us.

This would not have worked at a full-auto event, we would have been hosed.
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Re: Thoughts about the game mechanics

Postby MartinR » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:14 pm

To echo the comments above, I am not bothered by the use of semi-autos, particularly with lo cap magazines. They run out of ammo spectacularly quickly as the temptation is to double tap or walk rounds onto the target, whereas with a boltie you know you've only got one shot and it has to count. With the low power springs we are using you can cycle the action surprising quickly, and while it isn't exactly a 'mad minute', you can put quite a few BBs downrange if needed in a desperate situation. Then you run out of ammo or jam:)

This was my third rifles only game and I have regularly outshot people with garands and M14s, plus on this occasion, even a .30 cal machinegun, which was a nice surprise.

Like Yith, I spent a little time making sure the bbs come out of the barrel in the direction I'm pointing it, and it was really very satisfying to watch them trundling slowly through the air to be followed by 'aargh'. Aiming off its really hard to do, and I was lucky in that the donor gun shot very straight anyway. Main issue is feeding and I'm getting more practiced at clearing that.

As other people have said, to fight successfully in a rifles environment, you need to work in groups and you need to keep moving as there isn't any scope at all for spray and pray.

Having said all that, it is probably missing the point a bit as a lot of the fun is that most/all WW2 games aren't pure combat games, but mission type games which may involve no shooting at all, which you could equally do with AEGs or even no guns at all (like the night mission). The rifles just make it less likely to descend into a blatfest and introduce the more opportunity for manouvre.

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Re: Thoughts about the game mechanics

Postby dadio » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:05 pm

with the garand semi auto's in american hands you have to remember they really did have a huge advantage in the war even to the point where the german's waited until the ping of the ejected stripper clip before breaking cover and returning fire ,followed by the americans faking the ping noise to lull the germans out of cover..... i never felt this caused a game-play problem and those with garands clearly were playing in the spirit of the event.
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Re: Thoughts about the game mechanics

Postby Nurglitch » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:12 pm

Yith wrote:After getting my SMLE completed and finding I couldn't hit a barn door with it, I spent a day "accurising" it. First off I very carefully put electrical tape on the inner barrel to centre it in the outer barrel.


Would VSR barrel spacers be a good equivalent of this procedure?
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Re: Thoughts about the game mechanics

Postby Yith » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:28 pm

Yes, that's effectively what you're doing. However in a VSR they're actually less important as the front of the inner barrel is being held in the correct place by the end cap anyway.

This often isn't the case with a custom WWII gun.

Look down the barrel. If the inner barrel isn't in the centre of the outer one, or can be wobbled by stuffing something down it and waggling, then you have a problem.
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Re: Thoughts about the game mechanics

Postby Sgt.Heide » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:53 pm

To be fair, given the accuracy, or lack thereof, of airsoft rifles, you really should learn "point shooting", where you look down the rifle itself to sight it, rather than down the sights, much as you would with a real steel shotgun. I've had great results doing this and, with practice, you can fire faster and more accurately than you could with using the sights. You're only after a hit, not targetting body specifics at long range.
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Re: Thoughts about the game mechanics

Postby Chomley-Warner » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:52 pm

Oooh, I'm glad you said that. I've never used sights on airsoft guns - probably because my first gun was a Thompson which I find hard to shoulder and peep down the sights and then a frustrating period with a 'sniper' rifle whose sights were waaay to powerful for airsoft. And I guess it's just me but I don't like a great chunk of my vision obscured with a very blurry rear sight where I can't see a hole or notch and a foresight and barrel end that covers half of the target. Instinct and a bit of 'lining up' seems to work fine!
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Re: Thoughts about the game mechanics

Postby oddball » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:45 pm

Yes using the sights on an airsoft is pointless much of the time once you get past 50ft the tendency for a BB to stray is high, nothing like an air rifle or a true firearm. Airsoft is far more like an old musket or as said above a shotgun, I have never found much use for a scope in airsoft as most of the time you end up looking to the side of the scope to see where the BB is being blown to.

I was pleased to find I was still ok with a bolt action at Pavlovs House when I got 4 hits with my first 5 shots, once I started to try to use the sights my hit count dropped, but a big reason for that was I was wearing a face mask and could not get my cheak against the rifle stock properly. :slap:
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Re: Thoughts about the game mechanics

Postby Yith » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:59 pm

I used my sights loads at Chambois and got masses and masses of kills.
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