The magazine capacity debate

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Chomley-Warner
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The magazine capacity debate

Postby Chomley-Warner » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:13 pm

I'm here at work huddled by a radiator, wearing a coat and scarf, trying to get through a bout of flu that struck Sunday night. So lets see if I can put some coherent words together that shows why the CiA policy is 'any capacity of mags is fine'.

OK, airsofters are a funny bunch - the constant mantra is 'it's not fair' (mag capacity, gun range, ammo limits, qty of MGs, light ordnance available, fps blah blah). Well, get over it, real life battles weren't 'fair'. Each side had to make the best of whatever they had, take advantage of the advantages or work round the disadvantages.

Airsoft has to have rules and CiA makes them as simple and as clear as possible . Number 1 CiA rule is don't be a cock. That is to say, what few rules there are mustn't be exploited or stretched and if there isn't an explicit rule use your common sense. We don't have a rule that says 'Players must not empty half a magazine into an enemy's face from 10ft' - this is covered by the 'don't be a cock rule'. With me so far?

So, taking the theme of simplicity we originally came up with a basic rule of 600rnds per life - it matched AK mags, was easy to work out for other mag capacities and gave the player a decent chance to get some fire down before trudging back to a regen to reload. (Since CiA games are non-stop we try to keep players in the game.)
Plus points:
Simplicity
Players are not required to buy new mags (they may well have more than one gun - starts getting very expensive)
Players have the choice

Now then, consider a 'low cap' only rule. What does this mean? 30rnds? 50rnds? Right, so lets say 'non-winding mags only'. Ermm 30rnds or 150rnds?
What about all those who have no choice - Stens, Shoei, Ultima, custom etc? OK, so we make an exception for them? How has that made things 'fairer' or 'more realistic'?

Decisions have become a bit more interesting of late with mid cap MP40 and Thompson mags. So if MP40 users really feel at a disadvantage then there are solutions. But anyone who chooses to use 50rnd mags can't complain about being against hicaps.

Those who grumble about a perceived advantage of high caps (which amounts to maintaining firing while you are busy changing mags) fail to see the disadvantage. Chaps with hicaps use ammo much quicker - once it's gone, it's gone. Be tactical and force your opponent to empty his mag. If you are having a :ghey: standoff firefight with no cover, one-on-one, the chances are the hicap will win, no doubt. Meh, it's your own fault, what kind of a game is that?!

CiA games like to give personal choice. If you like the realism of low caps the go for it. If you are on a limited budget and you only have the mag that came in the box, no worries. If you have come from non-WW2 events and just have a stack of hicaps then one and a half of them will do the trick.
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Yith
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Re: The magazine capacity debate

Postby Yith » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:48 pm

Well said Dave.

Which is why if we do want to reduce ammo usage then a lower ammo limit is the way to go, otherwise things get way too complex.

(I'm not saying CiA should take on a lower ammo limit mind you!)
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Re: The magazine capacity debate

Postby biguk » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:11 pm

I agree with chommers. Banning Hi-caps to suit a few hot headed people, isn't the way to go. It'll just end up damaging the numbers of new players. The best bit about CiA is that it welcomes new players with open arms, with no or very little kit.

Its a personal choice. I chose to carry no more than 200 rounds loaded into my Garand mags (25 of them), and 15 rounds in my Pistol. I like playing realisticly but it does mean i should dictate how someone else enjoys playing.

If i come up against a "Hi-Cap", then its a challenge im prolly gonna lose. It just makes me want to play harder and find a way to out wit them.
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Re: The magazine capacity debate

Postby Yith » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:43 pm

does math..

25x200 = 5000 cheat!! you should only have 600! ;)
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Re: The magazine capacity debate

Postby Boshman » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:48 pm

Some very valid points there CW and I see you have made references to a number of the points I made in the other mag debate thread thats going on this subject. Let me just say that I made those points mearly as an ilustration to a point and to further the debate and not as an example of actual game-play tactics. I embrace the challenge of being the underdog, why else would I play as axis?! :lol: Meh, I use my bolt-actions whenever possible anyway.

I fully understand the "inclusive" ethos that CiA take, so maybe an outright ban on big hicaps is more suited to the more specialist PBI type games, or maybe some those that do use big hi-caps just need to be more mindful of your rule number 1 :wink:
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biguk
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Re: The magazine capacity debate

Postby biguk » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:34 pm

Yith wrote:does math..

25x200 = 5000 cheat!! you should only have 600! ;)



SSSsssHHHhhhh :whistle: :rofl:
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marsha
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Re: The magazine capacity debate

Postby marsha » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:44 pm

i have 1 hi-cap and 2 low caps i would rather stick to my hi-cap as its less mags to carry (to me less is best)
thats my personal view i dont mind ammo limit rule but its best to try it out on the nxt game and take it from there
besides im hoping to buy 1 of shoot n scoots m14 conversions nxt year
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Re: The magazine capacity debate

Postby oddball » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:54 pm

Yep leave it all as it is there isn't a debate.
I get shot so often I fill up then. :slap:
If I take a rifle to a game I expect to use the range as an advantage over any magazine capacity.
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Re: The magazine capacity debate

Postby Gadge » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:58 pm

oddball wrote:Yep leave it all as it is there isn't a debate.


No of course there isnt... (facepalm..)

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Re: The magazine capacity debate

Postby scaleyback » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:35 pm

just becouse you have hi-caps doenst mean you have to fill them...... i have a mix of hi and lo for the thompson, i just put a pistol mag fast loader full in the high caps ( about 100 bbs or there abouts, if you stop to take cover while winding its not much different in time from changing a mag)
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Re: The magazine capacity debate

Postby Helga Geerhart » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:02 pm

Hmmmm I'll comment better when I've played with my new thompson (captured of course :lol: ) :whistle:
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Re: The magazine capacity debate

Postby Snyper » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:55 pm

Perhaps the question isn't the total amount of rounds carried.

Perhaps it's a question of the number of rounds carried per single mag, and the number of mags carried.

A player with 1 x 450 round Tommy mag will have a decided advantage over someone with the same amount of ammo in MP40 mags (even the 110 rounders don't come close) for sheer volume of fire, which is a very key factor in most games of airsoft. Face it, when you standardise the FPS, then it becomes a split between the amount of fire you can put down and just how tactical you are.

Now, I know a few people will say 'well, you should just be more tactical', but you forget, we're not soldiers, we're airsofters, and at the end of the day we're out playing for a laugh and to have fun. If we don't want to go all sneaky-beaky and crawl through a river to get to the other side then we won't, so volume of fire becomes the next item on the list. Quantity has a quality all of it's own and all that rot.

One way to look at it would be that anyone with a mass of ammo in a single mag should possibly pose as a light support gunner, rather than a line infantryman. How you'd determine and deal with that is another issue though.
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Re: The magazine capacity debate

Postby Steiner » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:00 am

Possibly, Scott.... It's been that long since I've played with anything but lo-caps, but I distinctly recall a helluva lot of winding was required.

I think the overall ammo limit it sufficient - as long as it is adhered to... :wink:
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Re: The magazine capacity debate

Postby Kermit » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:07 am

Do Hicaps give an advantage? Undoubtedly yes. Is it insurmountable? Nope. As once said in a film, "Improvise, adapt, overcome" - you just have to get smarter.

I've been playing Airsoft longer than I care to think. I've run with Hicaps, Midcaps & Locaps over the years - and i've learnt a couple of things:

1: Learn to use semi-auto. Saves you a ton of ammo, and in my experience, actually increased my kill count as I was forced to make every shot count.

2: Tactical reloads. Don't wait till a mag runs dry, change it when you want to, not when you're forced to.

BUT. There is one thing that applies to both Hicaps and Locaps, and I observed it at BOTB2. Ammo conservation, or to be more precise, the lack of it.
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Re: The magazine capacity debate

Postby Snyper » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:09 am

I do see your point Andy, but still, it doesn't take that long to wind a full mag, especially if you do it continuously and fire in bursts as many players do.

Another thing to point out is that they have this amount of ammo immediately present. Yes, it does require winding but there are no mag changes required, no faffing around with pouches or dropping bits of kit on the ground, no rummaging for speed loaders and no finding that extra bag of ammo you stashed somewhere. It's there, you have it, and all you have to do is wind the mag on a bit to get to it.
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