Windproof/denim smock pattern?

I don't know of a pattern anywhere or in my records but Panther do these / very similar variants for only 96 Euro:

http://www.panther-store.cz/en/catalog/ ... smock-drab

They are good quality and tailored to the correct size.

Ah yes I've seen the panther ones and I did intend to purchase it at some point, but I'd quite like to make my own and I like the idea of the denim one. Cheers though, I'll probably pick one up if I can't find/make a pattern. I've partially drawn up measurements from pictures of the main body panels and sleeves, I just need hood and pocket measurements for me to make something that looks fairly accurate. Oh, and a fair bit of sewing practice!

If you watch this space a certain supplier of high quality custom airsoft guns may be producing these soon! !

Regards

Euan
Team Shoot N Scoot

I'll keep my eye out, if the price is right I'll go for one

Hey Moss,

Just to add a few corrections to your request; The denim "Smock, Snow" ones were all green denim - no brown denim ones were produced, though some of the shades of green denim were rather on the "swampy" shade of green and many look brown-ish in photos after 70 years worth of wear. The true brown/tan "Smock, Drab" ones (also seen labelled as "Smock, Suit") were produced out of very tight weave medium-light weight cotton - "windproof cotton" if we must...

If you'd like a denim one; finding green denim in the right weight and shade is near impossible in the UK (believe me, I've been searching for the very same reason for over 3 years now, and I'm big on the whole sewing uniforms side of things)- I had to wait until I last went to Hong Kong (to Sham Shui Po district - hundreds of fabric and haberdashery shops) to get some from a 40 year old roll which had been sat at the back of a shop, and them they only had 2.5m left...

I have been drawing up a set of fabric draughts/patterns for making a pocketless and rubberised version for a replica Cockleshell Heros outfit, but these have been put to one side while I changed my focus and started to draw up sewing patterns for mountain breeches (Breeches, Climbing). If you would like to have a go and make your own, I'll dig out my patterns I started and will complete them and send you a copy along with some photos of seam construction of particular bits, only thing is it'll probably be well after Christmas before they'll be complete and I've proofed them and made copies for you. Interested in the mountain breeches pattern too once their done? Made from 11-wale beigey-browny-green corduroy (another pain to find a suitable fabric for! I really set myself up for these projects, don't I, eh? hehehe).

If you'd like a Drab windproof cotton one, I'd recommend buying one because, funnily enough, I've got a drab ("Smock, Drab"/"Smock, Suit") one and a complete set of white snow version ("Smock, Snow Suit" and "Trousers, Snow Suit") on order from Panther Store, just because it's not worth my effort and cost to make these for myself, at his low prices! Fantastic quality too. If you were to buy one, I'd not recommend a Pegasus Militaria one, as they're far to orangey brown, the fabric appears too heavy, and he adds extras to some which weren't originally present, like cuff straps, etc... I would, however, recommend a Panther store one.

But do bear in mind that, although he can tailor them to your measurements,....

...Panther do these... ...They are good quality and tailored to the correct size.

....his period sizes e.g: "Size 2" are way off from genuine sizings - i.e: his 'Size 2' is actually that same size and in places a bit bigger than a period 'Size 3'! Before I ordered my sets from him, I made up a table in Excel to compare the sizes on offer - I'll see if I can dig it out....

EDITED: To correct the wale count stated for 'Breeches, Climbing'.

....ah yes, here it is - a 'Print Screen' of the Excel sheet below:

-- attachment is not available --

As you can see, I've not been able to research the original waist or breech sizes for period 'Size 3' or 'Size 4' trousers yet.
I've original Drab trousers in 'Size 1' to 'Size 3', but only the 'Size 2' pair still as a readable label - all the others are washed out and over-stamped with a singular "1" and "3" in indigo ink.

Ah ok, I thought that there were brown versions simply because I've got quite a few pictures with some showing very green ones and some showing very brown ones (like the ones I attached). I guessed that the manufactures might've just used the same dyes that they used for denim BD, and had a mixture of earlier and later dye lots (I'm sure that I read somewhere that denims were brown early on in the war). The last picture I have attached is of a very mint example too and you can see that it is a light, nutty brown, with no significant green element in it. I suppose colour wasn't really important back then so if a smock turned out a bit greener or browner than intended, they didn't give much thought to Reenactors and collectors 70 years down the line.

Out of curiosity, what is the correct weight of denim, as I was thinking of just buying some white or undyed denim and using Rit to dye it, I've found a Rit colour mix that I think looks rather close to the last picture I attached. I'll look for a green dye mix too.

If you could send me the pattern it would be very much appreciated, time isn't an issue as I intend on doing a lot more research into these anyway. I don't think I'll bother with the climbing breeches (for now, anyway), but I would very much like the smock pattern if it's not too much trouble.

I was eyeing up one of the panther store repros, they do look rather nice.

Cheers, Moss.

The last picture I have attached is of a very mint example too and you can see that it is a light, nutty brown, with no significant green element in it.

Hmmm. That last picture looks rather green to me? More so than the picture above it, which also looks green to me? Please bear in mind that those pictures aren't taken in the best of light. Yes, there were 'brown' denims which are were made of a denim of a far browner shade, but still had hints of green in, rather than the flat brown repros offered by WPG. Yes, colour variation was not critical when there's a war on! Even they type of fabric did change - two sets of my 'Trousers, Drab"/"Trousers, Suit" are not made from a twill material, and have more of a linen 'square' weave to them!

If you dye some white denim with Rit, won't the whole thing turn that colour? You'll loose the two-tone effect of the white weft weave on the underside and the characteristic show-though of this on the 'right' side. You might as well just use a heavy-weight 100% cotton twill already dyed to the correct shade (like what coloured "denim trousers" from supermarkets are made out of), if you're happy for it to not look like real denim? WPG and SoF are both culprits for not using white-back denim for their denims, and instead using cotton twill too. Soloman Adler's denims are the only ones (apart from home-made repros ) that are made from proper white-backed denim, though they are rather bluey-green rather than browny-green... (....it is so hard to find the right colour!): http://www.battledressandbayonet.com/20.html

e.g:
black denim jeans

vs.

black 'denim' twill jeans

Weight-wise, ideally you're looking for 14oz denim, but 12 or 16 sound still be fine (though make sure you've a sewing machine which is 'man enough' to tackle multiple layered seams of heavy denim (up to 8 layers in places).

I'll send you a set of patterns as soon as they're done and I've made a copy of them. I'll try and mark on scaling/sizing marks to help you tailor to your size (I'll hopefully have them done as period "Size 4" with "Size 3", "Size 2" and "Size 1" scaling on them). Want any period 'bracer' buttons for it when you're done? I've got a considerable stash I could make a set up from in certain military used colours...

Ah, it might just be the screen on my phone that's making it appear more brown.

I did think of the effect that dyeing would have on the "denim-ness", maybe back to the drawing board on that one.

I'm pretty sure my mum has an old, beefy sewing machine in a cupboard somewhere, I'll try and dig it out. There's a decent sewing and fabric shop just up the road so I'll look for denim there (if I find a good denim, I'll let you know), failing that I'll try and find some suitable heavy cotton. Not ideal but ah well.

It looks like I'm a wartime size 3, so being able to scale down would be brilliant. A set of buttons would be appreciated too, saves me searching for them. Just PM me when you've got it all ready and we can sort out the necessary.

Cheers, Moss.

Awesome. Will do!

You could always try here too:

http://www.silvermans.co.uk/products/co ... 4837473539

You could always try here too:

http://www.silvermans.co.uk/products/co ... 4837473539

'spensive! And not to mention they copied the 50s/60s produced ones with the non-scalloped cuff straps and coloured (rather than white) cotton ties...

As you can see, I've not been able to research the original waist or breech sizes for period 'Size 3' or 'Size 4' trousers yet.

I can now confirm, thanks to an original 1942 dated pair of "Trousers, Snow Suit";

Size 4 Waist = 38" to 39"
Size 4 Breech = 44" to 45"

Brilliant!
I'm guessing that they're sized to go over BD?

Yes, all sizes are in relation to your actual body sizes (both the original Brit' sizing and Panther's sizing). The actual garments are far larger to go over underclothing. I can easily fit inside my original wartime pairs of 'Size 1' Suit trousers with my work clothes on underneath with room to spare, even though I'm technically a wartime 'Size 3'/Panther 'Size 2'

On an unrelated note again;
I can also confirm that there seems to be a not-insignificant-amount of wartime "Smock, Windproof" and "Trousers, Windproof" with odd labels in (e.g: Saying 'Size 2' but listing dimension sizes for 'Size 1', or having a complete non-standard/made-up range of dimension sizes listed on the label). This appears to only been seen on the "Windproof" versions, but there are lots of other examples that do have the correct label size and sizings in!

So much for 'standards', eh?

Could it possibly be that different factories had different interpretations of what sizes are what, or is it possible that they were sent pre-printed labels and it was up to them to fill the dimensions in?

The more and more I look into supposed "standards" I realise they can be anything but!