RIFS buts and maybes

I'm not really sure what the issue is Guy?

UKARA are plugging the strong "3 games -no ifs, buts etc join the database " as the main way to purchase guns from their members. Meanwhile AH are selling RIFS to reenactors under the other defence.

Don't have a problem with this at all ,as both are legal .

However what I would like is for Frenchie to come out and say "UKARA recognise the reenactor defence and provided you can prove XYZ then you can buy guns from all our retailers .

It opens up the debate again about reenactors, one that Jay pushed for in September and was ignored about . Now he's almost admitting this is going on , how can he not do this ?

So lets say Frenchie does allow the reenactor defence, well that opens up a new route to purchase for our forum people who are reeanctors ........more importantly it also opens up the possiblilty of CiA getting some insurance and a membership scheme to enable CiA members to buy RIFs without the ballache of the the UKARA registration .

Which would be a first for an airsoft forum lets say , & a valuble perk of joining CiA etc etc . Might also give us a good reason for geting insurance , if nowt else it opens up the possibilities I'd have thought .

Double standards is the issue.

Join re-enactment group, prove membership, get RIF.

Become member of Airsoft site, play three times in not less than 2 months, fill in UKARA paperwork which is then logged onto the system. You must do at least one purchase of an item that falls under the VCRA a year to stay on said system.

To be perfectly honest, when you compare the two, it makes it look like UKARA are abusing their position of relative power.

Right, I thought this was done and dusted.

I still don't see the issue with UKARA though - they deal with airsofters, not reenactors. A retailer may deal with both of course.

The difference is with the legislation, not with abuse of 'power'. (Meh, it's the sites that have the 'power')

Yes, I see the point that Airsofters are being treated differently, perhaps less well, than reenactors, but that's because the defence for each group of players is different.

A retailer can sell to whomever they please as long as it's legal, it doesn't matter two hoots to them how it's legal, as long as it is.

We have a choice in which path we go down to gain our defence in law to enable a seller to sell to us, it's up to us to choose which one we think is the easiest to enable that.

Yes, I see the point that Airsofters are being treated differently, perhaps less well, than reenactors, but that's because the defence for each group of players is different.

A retailer can sell to whomever they please as long as it's legal, it doesn't matter two hoots to them how it's legal, as long as it is.

We have a choice in which path we go down to gain our defence in law to enable a seller to sell to us, it's up to us to choose which one we think is the easiest to enable that.

This is in danger of getting side tracked by mention of dual standards. Ignore that .

Stephen's coment is the pertinant one , however the point I am trying to make is that we can only use the reenactor defence to buy from Airsoft Shops if they agree to do allow it. Zero One etc could say " I don't give a fuck about your reenactment group your names not on the UKARA database so you can't buy " which is the line they mostly are taking now.

Why is it to do with UKARA - because they are the trade association for airsoft shops , if Frenchie gets his members to agree it means a lot more retailers than just Action Hobbies.
We are in a unique position to make the most of the reenactor defence for his members. Thats why I think it matters.
What the rest of the a/s world do to get their RIFS I couldn't care about , it's about any advantage to CiA .

Given that we are four months down the line now I think it's all been pretty much sorted. If airsofters want to buy guns then there are a few hoops to jumps through, not least of which is attending some games - meh, they are supposed to be airsofters so not too much of a hardship there!

I've come round to oppose the idea of CiA carrying insurance (as things stand at the moment) esp just to provide a benefit to members. I would have to be self-financing and an annual commitment - neither of which are practically possible.

Chaps have been making their own arrangement now with little problem...

Ah well if you think it's of no possible value to establish the reenactor defence with UKARAs member shops whatsover I'll drop it .

Here was me trying to think of ways to maintain the lead we've developed, but if we're happy just to sit back provide forum services for other people to take the initiative in the genre we invented, then so be it .

What I find most bizarre is that UKARA are missing an opportunity to make more money - not to mention the political advantage of saying "I sell RIF's to re-enactors", which lets be honest, sound a lot better than "I sell RIF's to crazy people who run round the woods shooting each other"

No need to be miffed Guy!

We have explored this already - even if UKARA add reenactor's card numbers (were it possible) to their database it wouldn't have a benefit to CiA (other than 'look what we did').
We don't have and won't have a status as either a site or reenacting club where we can sign people off for the UKARA scheme.

No need to be miffed Guy!

We have explored this already - even if UKARA add reenactor's card numbers (were it possible) to their database it wouldn't have a benefit to CiA (other than 'look what we did').
We don't have and won't have a status as either a site or reenacting club where we can sign people off for the UKARA scheme.

As Oddball would say , yer hitting me with the negative waves man

Take it a step at a time . Not arsed about UKARAs database now, lets just establish the principal that bone fide reeanctors can buy from UKARA memeber stores .

What we choose to do with that it another debate .

We don't have and won't have a status as either a site or reenacting club where we can sign people off for the UKARA scheme

No we don't , but there are other ways to achieve this , some sort of affiliated membership to AFRA is just one cash neutral possiblity .

Why do it , yes one because we might be in a postion to do so , but the main reason would be to help all the poor people on this forum who have given up going to normal sites . The act is only 4 months old, how long do you think all these ACM guns will last .

If we can gain advantage without cost then it's surely got to be pursued , otherwise we'll have people saying "well I can only do the WWII events at F&O because they will sign me off after 3 games tihs year" .....in a small player base that would not help us .

Fair doos, I'm never negative but might not look at things the same way... Give me a problem and I'll give you a solution.

We shouldn't loose sight of the fact that a UKARA isn't a licence to buy - buying isn't a crime. However, it is a retailer's 'due dilligence' card to play should he be hauled before a judge for selling RIF's.

So, reenactors can buy RIFs from any shop that wants to sell them, no problem. The question is what proof are they asking for. Paul Dolby has set up an arrangement at Action Hobby's (sic) whereby they send their reenactor membership card details - an arrangement open to any retailer, its up them to satisfy themselves of elligability for it is their head on the line.

How would UKARA involvement benefit?

Heh, funny thing is here, I don't have UKARA registration! I could get it from F&O but haven't been there for over a year!

This is beside the point however because I don't have any money to buy a new gun anyway!

By the way, I do see your point Guy. However, I do think it would be difficult to justify CiA as a bone fide reenactment organisation. Not just from our organisation POV but also from that of the membership. It's hard enough to organise these people into a tiny group of members to create a team, let alone getting them to sign up to an agreed constitution with official membership, insurance et al.

The idea of an AGM attended by some of these people is just hilarious!

.....although the thought of Oddball being elected as Chairman does amuse me for all of one second

Nah it's all ok . If no one can see the benefit to exploring this they why bother ?
I wasn't even asking if you wanted to get off your asses to help , just if you felt it was worth doing, but as I've got a mainly negative response then why bother.
Sod the CAN DO , lets focus on why everything couldn't possibly work .
End off

Thing is, you presented an unclear case, the reason wasn't obvious for the convo with Frenchie, it looked like trudging down a path that Kermit had already made.

It took your phone call to make any sense (which was after my last post here).

A clear and precise road map and strategy is needed.

Let's start at the end - what is the goal?