Post-game discussion of rifle only concept

Hopefully the right place to post.
I loved it. Rifles only and low ammo was fine and improved the experience. Bear in mind however that you tried it out, weren't sure about and might have had a sleepless night or two. It worked! Well done. Why not try the next 'level'?
To me the success was the limited ammo. The garands were semi autos and did not muck the game up. To my mind therefore, if strict ammo limits are placed on smgs then you should be able to achieve a similar outcome. I say this as I get the impression reading the previous stuff that smgs are almost being written off in this style of game.
SMGs should be available to squad leaders and specialist troops. That's about it. Forget this assaulting business, until the SMG companies in the German army late war it does not happen (and those SMGs were MP44 assault rifles, different concept). Falschirmjaeger and Brandenburgers are a little different, if you play some of their special missions then re-visit the idea. Russians are a bit different too with SMG battalions, but I understood them to be opperating with the tank units. How many T34's do we have and how many games take place over rolling grass land suitable for tank warfare?
For me therefore, I would like to see squad leaders with MP40/Stens/Thompsons/Pshp with 150 rounds for the day. Resupply limited by higher command and no borrowing ammunitions from the riflemen as they use a different type of ammunition. I don't think you need to muck about with the hops and the ammunition weight, my experience is they are not as accurate as rifles anyway and if the man with the SMG knows he can run out of ammunition very quickly he is going to be very careful, as prooved (?) by this game. LMG in the squad/platoon with ammunition carriers, restricted as previously discussed for ammunition and length of firing without pause. Rifles with 100 rounds for the day or even less (60 as Steiner says perhaps) but allow and even encourage riflemen to redistribute their ammunition after an engagement, but not between rifles and smgs.
In short I think rifles must be encouraged by the event rules, but not to use the other, historically accurate, weapons is a shame. The night before the event Wladek did not sound convinced to me that the rules of rifles only would work. I think those of us that were there thought it was a roaring success. So, let's try the next progression of rifle squads with an SMG and an LMG.
As an aside I would like to see a late war German SMG squad with MP44's. Give them similar ammunition shortages and see what happens. Might be a disaster, but I think it might also be interesting.

As an aside I would like to see a late war German SMG squad

We had a bit of that at Hauptmann Horn, where the FJ were all supposed to use MP40s or similar and the Home Guard had rifles as far as possible. It worked fine, but again, it was down to stringent ammo limits and medic rules (20 minutes dead iirc) as well as the mission. I only fired 40 rounds all day.

Soviet SMG battalions operated with Tank Brigades, but ordinary rifle regiments acquired regimental SMG companies and by 1944 it was common to arm one company per battalion entirely with SMGs. Depending on TO&E SMG sections may or may not have had their DP LMGs as well.

However, identifying all the exceptions is to miss the point about the 90% of other units which had a bunch of blokes with rifles clustered around an LMG.

Cheers
Martin

We need to be a bit careful when talking about Section Leaders being armed with SMGs and/or pistols or a loud voice. IRL this will be roughly one per 10 men, however in Airsoft games we typically seem to operate in scaled down sections/groups of 3-5. e.g. at Eagles Dean had a pistol and loud voice, and we had three 'sections', one each of SS, Heer and Luftwaffe.

As few of us are trained soldiers, we just aren't able to operate effectively in larger groups, but the mini sections seem to work quite well. In the Airsoft TO&E the 'section leaders' are the NCOs commanding these small groups, and presumably it is these people who may opt to go for SMGs or whatever. I would suggest that such groups should have an absolute maximum of one automatic weapon, be it an SMG or a support weapon if we are a looking at a 'real TO&E' type game.

Alternatively you could go for the whole gun group, rifle group thing, but again, operating at RL minimum strength of six man sections (so you have a two man gun group, three man rifle group and an NCO). Sovs didn't and still don't split their sections up though.

I think we've had this organisation discussion before??

Cheers
Martin

I think we've had this organisation discussion before??

Cheers
Martin

We have, and there is no consensus.

but you are right, as we had it at Eagles, if we wanted 'the Squad Leader SMG' it would have been Me and Dean that had them (and we long ago decided that organisers should not have guns (especially a gun the outperforms everything else on the field lol )), we stick to loud voices and 'nbot really working pistols'.

Given that I remain completely unconvinced by 500fps rifles, and totally committed to them being under 350fps, then the problem with SMGs are always going to be that they have the range and the accuracy to match the rifles, with larger capacity magazines, a more compact and a more compact and handy design. Functionally speaking, they are a compact super-manoeuvrable MG - which does create a problem.

Sean has a good point, 'that is your ammo, live with it' is fine, good in fact, BUT you also have to make the SMG NOT capable of duelling with a rifle on single shot. that is not what they were for, it is an incorrect functionality.

And Martin is correct, we can identify the exceptions, like an MG34 firing from the hip, but if we base our general limitations on these exceptions then we are not being representative.

Frankly the only way is for whoever is organising something to law down the law as they see it, I don't see most of these rules being imported into the more inclusive/lax games with any real success. Organisers have to take the elements they want, and let us all know when we book in.

My M1A1 is as accurate as my No4 so just limiting to single shot would be silly. It would be a Garand in another package. If SMGs are to be allowed in very limited numbers / circumstances I agree that they need to be "neutered" (Thanks Yith for giving me that word in relation to my reduced FPS rifle) i.e. limited to sub 300 or even 280fps, and / or with hop units off and / or mixed weight BBs. This will take some research to decide the best knobbling technique so they are no use other than at short ranges, but they should still allowed be on full auto or single shot at user's discretion. I suggest that they could probably be issued by the game organisers, rather than expect people to scuttle the SMGs they use at other events. I hardly use my M1A1 anymore so I would happily drop a weak spring in it for use by someone else in a Doughboys or Wladek game.

I found the game with just rifles to be much more realistic. I never saw who shot me every time...... You really had to think before pulling the trigger and I found it refreshing not to be hosed down every 5 seconds as I am a regular rifle user. I thought it was a much more challenging game than usual and if I had been running at 100% rather than at 40% I would have really enjoyed it even more.

I felt it worked well but I know Wladek and Lipton do want to tweak with the concept. I think a LMG would add to the game whereas the smg's may not be appropriate if numbers are low. I don't think at Eagles it would have worked even if 'neutered'. However an MG34 and the .30 Cal on each side I think could have added to the game as objectives and defence/assault support esp with the ideas mentioned by people above. I think this would have added an interesting dimension to the game. I feel instinctively unsure over the inclusion of smg's........

Yes, but........
In airsoft we are opperating at point blank ranges. SMGs can compete at those ranges. We tend to play in very close country where you can get within a few feet of people if you are willing and sneaky enough. If a chap with an SMG did crawl his way to within 5m of a group of the enamy after hours of painstaking effort, why should he not spend his precious ammo on killing the lot of them? To my little brain that's fair. That does not address the problem of SMGs competing at range with rifles, but unless we opperate at longer ranges in more open country I'm not sure how you do that other than through severe ammo restrictions. I would also limit SMGs to full auto, which I think is accurate (?) and then they would have to be more careful with short bursts when they do shoot.
I would have no problem with trying a game with 'squads' of four with an SMG in each squad, IF the SMG was heavily limited in ammo. Let's give it a go and see what we get.
I agree it should be up to the organisers to state their requirements and proceed how they see fit. I would like to see serious ammunitions limits to bring some sense to it (it is no fun going with your nice rifle to a game and spending all day beng sprayed with fully automatic fire after carefully stalking your opponent) but I would prefer to see the full mix of weapons.
OK, I want to have my cake and eat it, but I feel sure that there must be a way of including all weapons and considering the cost of a decent rifle, all of the WWII airsoft community, in a game and still get a good authentic feel to it.

... but I feel sure that there must be a way of including all weapons and considering the cost of a decent rifle...

That is exactly the reason we are still working on it.

in regards to the close terrain, a suspension of disbelief that 'the very small bit of open tress' is the 'Open Orchard', an approach through which can be covered by rifle fire is a good way of looking at it.

Plus, even with all our neutering options, at 5m you would be able to get 'em all, and rightly so.

If a chap with an SMG did crawl his way to within 5m of a group of the enamy after hours of painstaking effort, why should he not spend his precious ammo on killing the lot of them?

That was exactly what I did at 'Patton', albeit with a pistol. Using my K98 to clear a trench full of Yanks didn't seem to be a viable option. That in itself is perhaps a source of silliness.

Wladeks point is a good one, we can't make organisers incorporate all these things, but for people who are planning games and particularly in pushing the boundaries, it is interesting to see what does and doesn't work. It is possible that we are a vocal but tiny minority, however getting 20 people to turn up for a rifles only game is a good indication that their are fair number of people willing try something different.

Cheers
Martin

It's very easy to make Craig's simple concept of rifles only very complicated, isn't it!

The thing is we are playing airsoft and what is possible or realistic is actually very limited. Sneaking up on people and shooting them or stabbing them is VERY airsoft and not at all realistic. Shooting someone ten feet away from a hidey-bush so they don't know where you are is VERY airsoft and not at all realistic - the bang would have marked your position and ten seconds later you would be dead. Had the game been run at the X-Site, say, with open hills and blowing wind and rain and the game would have been the worst ever with no one being able to hit anyone short of rifle-butting them.

Craig's game worked. And it worked because people were using similar weapons, the weather was kind, the scenario was fitted to the terrain, the medic rules suited the game and site, there were no massed assaults or any action that required heavier arms support or coordinated forces or vehicles. And so on.

So what did the game prove? It is possible to get together a very small game with rifles only. Bolt action rifles can physically shoot very low quantities of ammunition, so very restricted ammo limits is no problem. (Look out for a 30 round per day game next year ).

But in drawing everyone closer together with sub-350fps rifles you make it very difficult to bring SMGs back into the mix since the empowered rifle carriers suddenly feel disadvantaged again. Next step crippled SMGs as Ranj proposes? Nah, I'm not taking another gun apart! Keep it simple - rifles only is rifles only. A particular scenario may bring a twist for sure but do remember that whichever way you look at, and no matter what you do, airsoft is not realistic in the slightest, apart form looking vaguely similar! It has to be entertaining, it has to get you in the zone, it has be simple and it has to work as a game.

Well, I did say "if"

I have to agree with chommers here, why add anything to what is a working format. God if I could have my way (and I did try to get more rifles in the field) it would be rifle sections, officers and assault units only with smg and the whole game real steel, but that can't happen in a battle weekend as I would loose half the field!
The key one here is you guys created a level playing field, and that was the foundation of the airsofty parts success. The other key factor was have everyone there at the right game and all in the right spirit. C&D, well done guys for simply 'doing it'. It may not change the big picture (god if only) but it will inspire others to try and get more absorbed into the experience rather than the game. Medic rules looked great to!
Well done you lot, for another awesome contribution to the Ww2 game.

just had an idea how to reduce the smg's range,0.3 or 0.35 even 0.4g bb's price is not an issue due to the low ammo consumption in this style game.would not need any gun modification or hop off etc but would reduce the range dramatically .

Hi Guys,

was wondering for a few days if I should post up my thoughts for what it is worth. In the end i decided too. Maybe i shouldn't have Please note If anything comes across in a criticising way that was not my attention.

I originally looked at all the WW2 games which were scheduled for the year and booked the corresponding weekends off. Hoping to go to most of them if not all of them. So why didn't I book to go to Eagles?

"Rifles only" I looked at this and envisioned people popping there heads up firing a shot and then returning to cover whilst the opponent would do the same. I don't know why I had envisioned this, I just did. Queue music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddyZ0XZZbbw
The event was also the first event that had "banned" face masks. Which wouldn't of bothered me as I have been airsofting approx 9 years now and for the last 6ish have always just worn shooting glasses. But it was with this ban I thought the event was running a sort of double standards. As everyone would of turned up looking the part. (and from the pictures this is evident) But reading the build up to the event about people using VSR's and Garands (and in the aftermath reports Springfields and Mosin's) surely this would ruin some of the immersion you are trying to achieve? And its along these lines I thought "If they are going for authenticity surely they should allow MG's and Sub Machineguns? As both sides would of course had them" (how ever i will openly admit that I do not know how polish sections worked and what was the percent of rifles smg's and mg's units would carry) and it was this "Farby" factor that put me off a bit. You had done so much to get certain aspects right and the rifles in the game, but had it gone to far the other way? The way i felt prior to the game was yes.

Now its obvious from reading the reports that everyone had a good time. Maybe I should of booked on and just given it a go. I am sure I would of had a good time too. (although my polish accent is very bad!)
So my next question is when you put your next game on are you looking to incorperate fully automatic weapons? Also quite a few people said they medic rules were good. What was the exact rules you was using on the day, as had a quick flick through and couldn't find them.

Stu

I think (and this might or might not have been Craig's intention) that the 'rifle only' concept is to get away from the airsofter's fixation with gunz along with their constant 'it's not fair' bleating. Instead a much more pure idea prevails where life preservation rather than seeing who can out-range who, where team tactics prevail over lone 'snipers'. Forget about gun detail - all sides in WW2 largely had wooden sticks. This game saw everyone with wooden sticks, this was a first and a bit of a leap of faith. There are all sorts of takes on what constitutes authenticity. Airsoft is not particularly authentic in any way. Fixating on real-life squad weapon distribution (gawd only knows what it really was in this action on this day for this squad in WW2) really isn't what this game was about. Crow-barring other weaponry into this game would not have pushed the boundaries, it would have created just another game. And that would have been a pity.

I have to agree with chommers here, why add anything to what is a working format.

To get to the next 'level' if I can put it like that and not sound like a complete burk.
Surely WWII airsoft in general works and is very enjoyable. The rifles only game moved it on to a more realistic and dare I say more enjoyable experience as a result. If the automatics can be incorporated with the rifles next and still maintain the balance that was created at 'Eagles' then surely that is a good thing.
I'd go to another rifles only game. I'd go to any game I can make and that I have the pennies for at the time, but I think I now prefer what I'll call ultra low ammo games. Great stuff!

i think the ultra low ammo and medic rules had a greater affect than the rifles,if you only have 100 to 150 rounds per day! and getting shot means you are out of action until the next chapter of the story then even with an aeg you would be loathed to go to automatic fire and would be far less gung-ho.
this was a huge step in the right direction and having only rifles made the other aspects of the improvements clearer .im sure a game including limited numbers of support weapons and smg's would be equally good given correct limitation on numbers and amunition for smg's.with a view to support weapons i think the trick would be to only use them at particular times,not to have them in constant action.
my guess would be a ratio of 4 rifles to one smg may be worth trying,but for all except support weapons to have the same ammo limits.

Speaking for myself as a player, rifles only was a massive improvement over the games I've been to recently. The unskilled player, or poor marksman has no place at an event like this. This is good! Over the years, I've frankly gotten sick of knobheads with hot aeg's at WW2 games, who arrive with an open day mentality and ruin it for all concerned, by applying little other tactic than hosing in the general direction of the enemy. Ammo limits have little effect on people like this, as they just ignore them! This has put off a lot of rifle users. As Josh said, you have created a level playing field with this, where superior tactics, fighting spirit and marksmanship actually count for something.

I say stuff the aeg users Craig and, stick with this format. No smg's or support weapons just to cater for those who don't buy into the concept. "If you build it, they will come" applies to this kind of format and, if people don't want to buy in, or moan about it, then tough titty for them.

after a long debate with myself i have just ordered the G&G K980. Mostly due to Mr CW's great reviewing skills, but also due to the attitude towards rifle only events. "Build it and they will come" well heres one convert who is waiting for the build

i'd definitely go to another rifles only game in a heart beat,but i'd also like to see what would happen to an smg under the same ammo restriction and medic rules.and storming a lmg with rifles would be a good challenge as an objective as well.