A historical lesson in not getting to hung up on kit...

yeah... but officers can get away with all sorts of shit... the same in the British Army as well.

Most people want to portray Other Ranks, then they have to get it right...

Agreed.

However the same very respected book (Brian L Davies) claims that wafen ss pattern camouflage was occasionally used by the heer OR especially with regards to helmet covers, zelts and the like.

I found that beleivabel but news to me when i read it.

It makes the mismatch of kit in 'the bunker' less incredible

Theres a post over on axishistory that talks about a 'few' issues with this book, think theres also one on the WAF forum, or was it feldgrau forum or both anyways theres mention of at some point a revised edition of it being done as of course it is quite an old book.

Best rule of thumb I've found when researching anything is never believe one book or website, check LOTS and then come to a conclusion. If you can't find out yourself, find someone who can

you cant argue with photographs from the period... When i was researching my SS kit i found several pix of SS ncos with camo tunics WITH insignia!
I think soldiers everywhere always want to add a little something to their kit to make it more individual or more useful.

Think the prob with pictures is sometimes they are the exception to the rule and although you can't argue that someone out there or more htan one person wore whatever ensemble, just because there is proof doesn't mean its conclusive .

Theres been loads of discussions about various pictures on reenactor, collector and researcher fori about whether certain photographs are the exception, the one above I think has been determined as that.

Of course there are also usually a great number of pictures that don't show the uniforms as the pictures, which one is right One person doing a similar loadout shouldn't be a problem if its just a one of (and thus not common within that portrayal as it wasn't common) but lots of people then having similar loadouts would look dubious as of course not everyone wore that kit

A photo showing an exception to the rule is conclusive proof that there were exceptions to the rule, I think -

You're right, though - it would be a bit silly to have everyone running around in loadouts that represented exceptions to the rule. I think the main point here is that people shouldn't get too hung up about it if they can't quite manage to buy 'the complete look' so to speak, ready for this, that or the other game. A bit of mixing and matching shouldn't be seen as a problem - after all, soldiers in the field, especially in the later stages of the war, and on the Eastern Front, having to contend with supply problems and unforeseen weather conditions, wore what they could get their hands on.

*technically* this 'impression' or loadout is wrong and you'd have holes picked in you in various circles.....

Whats wrong some of you might ask?

Well its a heer officer wearing an ss tunic (or at least a privatley tailored one made out of ss pattern material) not only that he's wearing shoulder boards and insignia on it against regulations....

So we shoudl all go for the generic soldier rather than the exception but sometimes these things *do* happen.

Certianly appears to be the SS "dot" or "Pea" pattern, probably specially tailored....unusual but certianly not unknown being worn by Army (or LW/KM ground troops)....

It appears he wears the Knight's Cross with Oakleaves

Generalmajor Adalbert Schulz........ I think....

Richard: My point exactly, a classic example would be fulftwaffe field div units post 43 when the amry took over, any mix of lufty issue and army issue kit got through to them as they were low priority. My point as you say is that alhtugh we shoudl try and get the generic 'standard issue' wherever possible, occasionally (especially very late war) units got what they could.

I cant see a compnay desperatly needing replacment zlets 'saying sorry CQMS that not good enough, they are the wrong pattern the men will have to sleep out in the open unitl you can get the right ones)

A classic example is *numerous* pics of uk troops in german reversible parkas in the winter of 44/45 as there was no decent alternative in uk service.

Nelz: you may wel be right there is a mission to track down who he is on http://www.wwiireenacting

I see the 27th panzers in the background

Steve.D

7th panzer apperently summer of '43

Or so the experts tell me.

Got to agree with you Gadge, in certain circles, the loadout in question , would be frowned upon, ... but I guess , a certain amount of inner policing of kit, has to be done to ensure a degree of " uniformity ".

In the re enactment circles, if everyone took the lead of personalising their impression, ... the public would be greatly confused, ...everyone within a group, ... all wearing " bits and bats", .. not a good portrayal.

In our group, each member has a slight, kit character , visually different ,from the other, .. but subtle , and does not detract from the overall group impression.

A number of other groups, portray, near exact kit copies of each other. Nothing wrong in that, but for me , I enjoy the opportunity of being slightly less disciplined , I believe it is a more accurate overall impression .

I agree, i think you have to try and show the 'generic' image most the time however in some cases its incorrect.

For example if you take the rifle section i was in in 1998 a historicla researcher 60 years on will tell you that we all wore soldier 95, carried sa80 and lsw and wore plce webbing and either berets or mkvis helmets and CBA body armour.

In reality we wore a mix of kit from 68 to 95 pattern smocks and trousers, bits and bobs of civvie outdoors kit, tropicla trousers bush hats, crap hats, berets, CBA was rarely worn we had mixs of plce & chest rigs and odd bits of 58 pattern. A mate of mine did a tour of bosnia in a polish assault vest.

Soldiers in the field modify there kit and 'aquire' stuff to make life comfy, and often far from the press office.

An example would be the british troops in the far east prizing jap tabi jungle boots btu you wont find a photo of them wearing them as they were worn on night patrols.

But yes i totally agree re-enactment requires some uniformity but if you're portraying soldiers 'in the field' it would look more realistic to have about 20 per cent variation in kit.

I.e a late war uk rifle section might wear battledress or denims or a combination of the two, they might wear windproof cam smocks or leather kerkins or over coats or a mix of all three. Its *incredibly* unlikely all ten guys would look the same and wear their kit the same way unless on parade.

A quote to substantiate this...

a captain returns to his rifle company after being wounded in normandy in time for the rhine crossing

"...The company looked an amzing sight as we marche dinto our concentration area. The men were loade ddown with their usual impedimentia of ammunition , wepaons, picks and shovels; but then in addition every man had some personal treasure; some had hurricane lamps, some had oil house lmaps or an oil stove. Others carried baskets and two whole sections arrived each with some joint of a pig they had killed the day before slung across their haversacks. They looked a motley crew in a variety of battledress, leather jerkins or camoflage jackets, topped wiht weather beaten faces and a range of scarves..."

page 24 of 'operation plunder' by tim saunders

now the above would be realistic, equally photos of 2nd panzer in normandy show new recruits with marching boots (although re-enactors will argue this didnt happen in 44) varous types of tunic and trousers, dozens of variations of helmet cam etc.

So the question is, realism or idealism?

lets face it when your in that situation you use wats best for the conditons
staying alive is no: 1 priorty so the soilder wore wat was best to stay alive true now true then

yeah... but officers can get away with all sorts of shit... the same in the British Army as well.

NOT JUST OFFICERS,

as a trooper i used to wear black coveralls, with a US ARMY M65 woodland jacket over the top, and Green Knee high wellys (easy to take on and off when getting into gunners seat, leaving all mud outside the tank)

throw over the top of this an old german army sleeeping bag with arms and fold up bottom, and i looked a right state.

walking round the woods at night with NVGS and wearing my dossbag, and berret, id look more like a farmer than a squadie, and once a new troop leader (2nd lt) was stunned in to silence when i bumped in to him in the troop hide one night

one of our troop leader also wore wellys, and his barbour jacket , with helmet and webbing

"Take that you rotton helping of strawberry flan!"
Joseph Porta to "strawberrys and cream", in the sven hassel book ,ogpu prison

 

SAS Gulf war wearing Great coats brought from Arab market and other bits of non issue kit!

If i told you were i got this scan from id have to kill you

Now that pik I would love to see tony.