has there ever been a bolt action only game

Well IRL a SMG armed soldier carries his own ammo whilst the squad MG is supplied by the whole unit so technically no. It would be a few hundred rounds vs a thousand plus. At least it should be as the MG is a far more important weapon than any individuals SMG.

But its only 1 SMG per side Not really a valid point I don't think. Don't jump to conclusions especially regarding 'Open day tactics' there is a lot of difference between 1 SMG and 6 or 7. I ONLY do WW2 airsofting.

But it's not. Really ever. Is it. ?

But its only 1 SMG per side Not really a valid point I don't think. Don't jump to conclusions especially regarding 'Open day tactics' there is a lot of difference between 1 SMG and 6 or 7. I ONLY do WW2 airsofting.

But WW2 airsoft is so SMG heavy that it does get to open day blat fest well, fest.

I have gone to the expense of having a rifle as my only weapon. Ok, a M1 Garand, but I want to do US as a full re-enectment kit with the Doughboys group.

There is a lot of SMG's in all WW2 events......... Tactics or not......... It makes it unrealistic and makes it feel like an open day. It does. So Anything to reduce the effect to a realistic level should be taken. And I'm a newby. I've been in one open day, otherwise just WW2. I thought people like me were meant to be the future and so on........

But its only 1 SMG per side Not really a valid point I don't think. Don't jump to conclusions especially regarding 'Open day tactics' there is a lot of difference between 1 SMG and 6 or 7. I ONLY do WW2 airsofting.

But it's not. Really ever. Is it. ?

But its only 1 SMG per side Not really a valid point I don't think. Don't jump to conclusions especially regarding 'Open day tactics' there is a lot of difference between 1 SMG and 6 or 7. I ONLY do WW2 airsofting.

But WW2 airsoft is so SMG heavy that it does get to open day blat fest well, fest.

I have gone to the expense of having a rifle as my only weapon. Ok, a M1 Garand, but I want to do US as a full re-enectment kit with the Doughboys group.

There is a lot of SMG's in all WW2 events......... Tactics or not......... It makes it unrealistic and makes it feel like an open day. It does. So Anything to reduce the effect to a realistic level should be taken. And I'm a newby. I've been in one open day, otherwise just WW2. I thought people like me were meant to be the future and so on........

If you read the topic properly you would identify that the topic of convo was an all rifles game where the LEADER ONLY has an SMG. Not a general conversation regarding the state of WW2 airsofting.

LOL. Actually, because of tatty post quoting it's very hard to tell what people are actually referring to or answering!

If you read the topic properly you would identify that the topic of convo was an all rifles game where the LEADER ONLY has an SMG. Not a general conversation regarding the state of WW2 airsofting.

Heh, not the original topic of conversation at all, which was simply if a rifles only game were feasible. Topics likes this tend to weave their own path but there is no need for anyone to become irritable. Frankly, this topic is very close to the question of 'the state of WW2 airsofting' - or more accurately what players want to get from it.

Some players may want a style of game which is close to other types of airsoft game but in WW2 gear, others may want something where realism (yeah, a relative word I know) is the main focus. The majority I reckon want something that lays between the two (or perhaps are happy to attend a mix of game types).

So, is a rifles only game feasible? Yes, of course, already been done. Given the player numbers and weapon availability it will be a low numbers game. Of course, economics apart nothing wrong with a low numbers game. If you need/want higher numbers then compromises need to be made and players have suggested ideas that allow SMGs without dominating a game.

Let's keep focussed chaps!

I did mean read THROUGH the topic, not simply the first post which as you say is regarding 'feasibility.' Moaning about the number of SMG's in a thread which is loooking at a game where the running suggestion has been to have a shed load of rifles and one SMG then quoting '6 or 7' is the part which I was scrutinizing...then the desent in to general waffle regarding the number of SMG's in WW2 airsofting. Result - off topic rambling.

Damn ,,,,,,,and I was going to vote for most pointless post on the forum award...

Want to run a single shot rifles only game? ....er go for it

Well IRL a SMG armed soldier carries his own ammo whilst the squad MG is supplied by the whole unit so technically no. It would be a few hundred rounds vs a thousand plus. At least it should be as the MG is a far more important weapon than any individuals SMG.

I thought he was talking about in general
but for LMG's only that makes sense
Also
Would it be a naive thought that rifles could become more common with the realse of ICS m1 Granad and G&G K98?

Some interesting ideas... we are trying to push the boundaries at AGS events by reducing SMGs and rifles to 200 rounds per life. This should hopefully be tipping the balance more in favour of bolt action rifles - it would be difficult to even use 200 rounds with one of those.

I think you made two really good calls at the Gigolo (or whatever) game.

1. The ammo limit made a big difference and finally brought the support guns into the game in a meaningful way - I'm not sure it generated more rifles but it definitely did markedly reduce the dominance of the smgs.

2. Cajoling everyone to turn up in a helmet but that's a different topic.

As someone who has spent the last four (five?) years soldiering on* with a rifle of one form or another at pretty much every event we've been to, and a similar length of time banging on about rifles on the forum, I have come to the conclusion that it's just not going to happen. SMGs seem to be just too alluring to people for a multitude of reasons, not least being that they're noob guns and you get loads of easy kills with them**.

* Note - Pun Intended
** Note - Not everything in the above post should be taken entirely seriously
Note - But many a true word is spoken in jest

would it be an idear to do a servey (yes i know yet another...) to see who actualy owns a rifle and where they live or would be prepared to travel to.i think many of us would love a rifle only game but if its 4 in scotland ,4 in wales ,4 in kent etc ... then it aint gunna happen any time soon.that maybe sounds too negative and it wasnt meant too but i think it may still be a worth while idear.could it be added to the where are you thread,maybe add what impressions you do and what weapons,that would add to the where are you threads usefullness.

I hate rifles. There, I've said it

I spent a small fortune on my Tanaka K98 and never enjoyed playing with it. It's just not my game style.

If you enjoy using them, then use them. Yes, you're outgunned - so what? At Giogio my only weapon was a de-ac revolver. Didn't hit a thing all day Did it affect my enjoyment of the day? Not a bit.

Heh, I have to say I have had a hopeless relationship with rifles too - from my first G-Spec where I rather fancied the 'sniper' role (stupid, stupid, stupid - never hit a thing, no positive experience at all and a waste of time in 'normal' airsoft) to my Tanaka K98 where I only had any luck at the Monte Cassino game. The M14 on single shot was a much better option for me however.

Yep, it's my problem. I've been pinned down by people who can use the things accurately so it isn't necessarily an inherent 'problem' and it would be utterly brilliant to have another go at a rifles only game, where at least the would be a reasonably level playing field. Perhaps severely limiting high powered rifle's ammo to simulate the 'sniper' role (getting into position and taking out marked targets, not using them as regular battle rifles), which might encourage the use of normal power single shot rifles.

Beyond that, the only way I can see to level up a mix of auto and single shot is by severely limiting the ammo allocation and fps of autos and giving the advantage of higher power to single shot rifles who then have an advantage of range. And that is exactly the general rule set of most everyone's games.

Well I think toska's original question has produced quite an interesting debate.

The fallout from this seems to have fallen into broad catagories:
1) Is it possible to do a bolt action only game/ or a game with accurate squad weapon types (ie MG, SMG, 7 Rifles per squad)
2) Should AEG's be limited in normal WW2 games.

On the first point, I think this would make for a very interesting game and may get a far higher attendance than expected. Partricularly if it was based on a more accurate squad composition (ie MG, SMG, 7 Rifles per squad say for German). I particularly liked Josh's idea of real steel limits, for a german squad I think this would equate to:
Rifleman 24clips = 120 rounds
SMG 6 Mags @ 32 = 192 rounds
MG bit harder to calculate iether 50 round belts (5 to a box) or 75? round drum mags with squad members carrying extra belts would be in the region of 1000 to 1,200 round?
Not sure what the allies carried but one can assume a real steal limit should be about:
Rifles = 100 rounds
SMG = 200 rounds
MG = 1000+ rounds

This would certainly produce a more realistic game at least with a better feel to it with the MG being the center of squad tactics, although sadly I think with the limited range of airsoft weapons real squad tactics will never be fully possible.

I also thought Sgt Heide's hop off idea a good one, worth considering.
Perhaps as Dadio has suggested we partake in another survey :

As for the question of limiting the power of AEG's as the norm in games, as Steiner quite rightly suggested the limiting of ammo does help to even things up, I also liked Roosters idea of more bandages, this is always a good way of effecting balance, in games where numbers are even it can be used to create the illusion of numbers to help the attacker, so could be worth considering

I think most games need to be as inclusive as possible, AEG's tend to be the entry level weapon and their high numbers should not be seen as a negative if sensible ammo limits are in place. There have been times with a rifle when I have been outgunned by high rate of fire AEG's but equally times with an AEG when I havent had the range to deal with a pesky rifleman, swings and roundabouts as they say.

But yes I would certainly be up for a bolty only game or preferably one with proper squad composition.

Well I think toska's original question has produced quite an interesting debate.

1) Is it possible to do a bolt action only game/ or a game with accurate squad weapon types (ie MG, SMG, 7 Rifles per squad)

On the first point, I think this would make for a very interesting game and may get a far higher attendance than expected. Partricularly if it was based on a more accurate squad composition (ie MG, SMG, 7 Rifles per squad say for German).

But yes I would certainly be up for a bolty only game or preferably one with proper squad composition.

Watch this space. Well, not exactly this space, but a space.

But yes I would certainly be up for a bolty only game or preferably one with proper squad composition.

Then in the first case you will be pleasantly pleased with at least one event next year
In the second case there have been several events that have used at least approximations to a 'proper' squad structure, but try as you may it falls to bits on first contact, the realities of warfare and the pale imitation that is airsoft become very apparent. And the only way it has even begun to work is in the style of game PBI ran when the day is split into several discrete games of a half or a quarter of an hour each. Similarly, in training days the squad thing has worked because they are discrete exercises and more controlled and purposeful.

Edit: Heh, Wladek pipped me to the wink, but then really it was his wink to give.

Good, good eager anticipation (sadly he dances better than me )

And the only way it has even begun to work is in the style of game PBI ran when the day is split into several discrete games of a half or a quarter of an hour each.

I think the shortest 'combat mission' PBI did was 30 mins, they were usually 45-60mins each. 15 minutes wouldn't give most people time to walk to an objective, let alone fight over it!

Heh, sorry - should have read my text before 'submit' - meant to say three quarters of an hour. Still, 15 minutes game then 15 minutes rest does have a certain attraction for me these days Gaming for the elderly, infirm and lazy - I think my idea will catch on...

Conducting a series of shortish operations/assaults does have a certain appeal as it perhaps reflects the flow of real battles (with O groups etc) more realistically and lets you keep subunits organised, and more importantly, provides plenty of opportunities for brewing up and having a rest.

The real steel ammo limits sound about right (IIRC German sections often ended up with around 1250-1500 rounds for the LMG whereas British sections were closer to 1000 for the Bren - ammo in magazines is heavier to carry). Keep it simple, 200 for SMGs, 100 for rifles and 1000 for MGs.

I think the main thing is to avoid over-complicating things with a ton of rules, and I'd also go with scaled down sections - typical actual platoon strengths for almost everyone were 20(ish)men, which is sections of six. One SMG (maybe two in some units), an LMG and 3-4 rifles. As not everyone owns an SMG, an LMG and a rifle, so instead of airsoft LMGs use an SMG with more ammo as the section support weapon but they have to fire deployed. If short of rifles, then use SMGs on single shot (and limit their ammo to 100). You get the mix of firepower within the section, but people can use the guns they've got rather than buying/bring other ones.

Just a thought.

Cheers
Martin

Conducting a series of shortish operations/assaults does have a certain appeal as it perhaps reflects the flow of real battles (with O groups etc) more realistically and lets you keep subunits organised, and more importantly, provides plenty of opportunities for brewing up and having a rest.

Just a thought.

Cheers
Martin

Pretty much why we went for it. Real soldiers are rarely fighting full out for eight hours at a push (it does happen but it's the exception). In reality battles historically are short bursts of frantic acivity followed by units being pulled back slightly to re-arm and re-organise. Most soldiers simply dont carry enough ammuntion for hours of combat.

The adavantages in airsoft are , as said, you can keep a semblance of squad activity together and having a tight focus on objectives. If the thrid stage of the op is to recce the radar dish then there is absolutley no point in wandering off lone wolf on the far end of the site as nbobody else will be there.

It essentially allows you to simulate the fact that the forces have manouvred tactically to the forming up point and the time at which the mission begins is the 'h -hour' so to speak.

Conducting a series of shortish operations/assaults does have a certain appeal as it perhaps reflects the flow of real battles (with O groups etc) more realistically and lets you keep subunits organised, and more importantly, provides plenty of opportunities for brewing up and having a rest.

Just a thought.

Cheers
Martin

Pretty much why we went for it. Real soldiers are rarely fighting full out for eight hours at a push (it does happen but it's the exception). In reality battles historically are short bursts of frantic acivity followed by units being pulled back slightly to re-arm and re-organise. Most soldiers simply dont carry enough ammuntion for hours of combat.

The adavantages in airsoft are , as said, you can keep a semblance of squad activity together and having a tight focus on objectives. If the thrid stage of the op is to recce the radar dish then there is absolutley no point in wandering off lone wolf on the far end of the site as nbobody else will be there.

It essentially allows you to simulate the fact that the forces have manouvred tactically to the forming up point and the time at which the mission begins is the 'h -hour' so to speak.

This can also be achieved by controlling the player regen which is how we did it at the Il Giogo Pass game.

Players were not allowed to respawn in one's or two's but would wait at the regen point until a suitable sized force was present to then be sent out on the same or a new mission or objective as decided by the CO or NCO and according to the requirements at that stage in the battle.

This kept players fighting in squads (sometimes ad-hoc) but also kept a more natural ebb and flow to the battle which meant you still got the down-time and breaks but still had to stay alert to an action or attack at any time which is realistic and helped to maintain the immersion throughout the day.

Of course the site and scenario is an important factor in what mechanics works best. Combat missions do suit some sites a lot better than rolling games.