lone wolfing? Good skills or bad drills?

It seems rather than cater for these type of players, its trying to be eradicated. you say its open day mentality yet, we use feild craft tactics and for the most part avoid uneccesary targets or groups that are to large, most the time if we engage we very rarely inflict full casualtys and retreat, the only reason we attacked a large group on saturday is because they were all eating tea and cake and their weapons were not in their hands, they had no sentry and were under the impression they were safe. Also note late saturday when 2 squads and an armoured car came after us when we were discovered, even before we had fired a shot. we had clear shots on about 15 men in front of us but no, we stayed perfectly still using field craft and evasion techniques. Sunday, when playing a a sniper role admittedly i did not inform an nco which can be faulted but we were playing a sniper role, we heard voices and immediately went to ground. They were less than 3 metres away before we had no choice but to open fire and retreat. yet again when they came looking for us we were hiding and managed to take out two yanks before one literally stepped on me holding a thompson. i am under the impression that you expect us to run around shoot everything we see... in which you are wrong.

This is the game play we like, the heart pumping action yet in a world war 2 setting.

Now you say theres a sniper role for that, but like you, we also want to play with our mates, we dont mind overall objectives but in we do know what we are doing, more so than the average person when it comes down to escape and evasion and staying undetected, we have done it for years, and come from military backgrounds, and hunting backgrounds(my dad was a british para sniper) and when we want to play such a stealthy role and there is and entire noisy squad being moved around you never get to see that role.

What i propose is that small groups are catered for as a sniper team + support, designated with the job of harassment, keep the enemy on their toes. escape + evasion+ambush tactics judging every encounter, movement and placement. Rather than this impression you have of open day mentality of a first person shooter.

you also need to understand that a large part of making this hobby grow is people coming from standard airsoft who have had enough of the cheaters and other things. By becoming the super hardcore your not being as inviting. for example we went to a small airsoft filmsim of joshs which was 100% hardcore, we didnt like it so we leave it to the super hardcore, by making this super hardcore your pushing players away again. After all the problem here with lone wolfing isn't the role play,as i am sure we and others do role play deaths and other things that only add to the game.

And all your other posts after

Please keep in mind that we don't necessarily 'cater' for anything. The question is in open discussion now, not just with nice and friendly (as a sincere compliment to his character) Josh, and most organisers here run games for no reason other than the joy of playing in them.

In short, I have no real interest in what you want or what makes your socks roll up and down, and would be ecstatic if there was an eradication of something. Not the playing style (that has pretty much been accomplished and if you had pulled what you, so I read, did at almost any of the other organisers' games you would have been unlikely to have finished the day - it would be bye bye go home time), but of your attitude.

Your attitude is one of such entitlement and disregard for all those around you. You felt free to disregard the rules, and their obvious intent, and worse - you have not even apologised to those running the event or your fellow players - who have been unanimous in their dislike of your actions. Not only have you not apologised, but have demanded that your actions be catered for in future events?

The most civilised response I can come up with is 'Sod off sunshine', because I don't want you, or however many people you bring to 'the scene', anywhere near my hobby.

What i propose is that small groups are catered for as a sniper team + support, designated with the job of harassment, keep the enemy on their toes. escape + evasion+ambush tactics judging every encounter, movement and placement.

You can propose what you like, whether an organiser decides to run a game that way is up to them.

However, you might find that the only game that caters for players like this is the one you have organise yourself. Trying to cater for everyone's tastes means you end up with an unfocussed and uncontrollable mish-mash of an event. What some of us here have termed 'SISKs' (SISK = Skirmish In Silly Kit).

Josh runs events with a very open ethos to new and inexperienced players to the WW2 scene, which is great. It obviously caters to a large and varied market. Other organisers choose to run the events they want and see if people turn up to play, which they do (mostly!). They run events that they would enjoy playing themselves, if they choose to restrict the rules/numbers/kit/weapons/face masks or whatever, it's up to them.

If you don't want to play that sort of game then don't attend, you probably wouldn't enjoy it anyway, and if you went off piste with the rules and decided to do your own thing, then don't be surprised when the other players, who are all signed up to the event's advertised ethos, tell you that you're breaking the first rule of Comrades in Arms.

The first rule of Comrades in Arms is "Don't be a cock".

No-one has ever run a 'super-hardcore' WW2 airsoft event. We've perhaps touched on 'hardcore'. To me 'super-hardcore' would be unpalatable to most people. Even some of the easier-going events that CiA have run have been tough to endure because of the weather or terrain, but not 'super-hardcore'.

I hate all this shit about events not being inclusive. Of course they aren't, they cater for a niche, if you like the idea of the niche you'll come along. They are, by their very nature, events that have a limited market. The one defining feature of that market, the USP if you will, is that there will be a bunch of like-minded people all striving to achieve the same outcome. If we changed that to make things more 'inclusive' we'd get a load of people come along that would perhaps destroy that USP. THAT SAID, we've never had to turn people away because of kit or weapon restrictions, or because of their flouting of rules because most people get it. They understand the ethos. Some people have come once and never again because they didn't perhaps like the restrictions placed down, but that's fine, it's not for everyone.

If you like the idea of the event, and can agree to the rules, come along. If you're looking to change the way things are done here, you might be better off organising your own event.

all of what you have said can be catered for in world war two reenactment and i am sure they would be more than willing to take you on, but at the end of the day this is WORLD WAR 2 AIRSOFT not world war 2 blank firing sitting around tents reenactment and there needs to be a halfway point between the super hardcore and the less so, for the hobby to grow yet still inkeeping with the period and the spirit of the game.
you say that but we did actually follow orders for a while on other games, but you get the feeling that your there paying for other peoples fun so you can look like a sentry sitting on top of a hill. on day i didnt even get to fire my gun in anger let alone see and enemy, and you begin to wonder why people want to form their own squads and actually play a world war 2 battle.

I think you need to go back and look at a number of the past airsoft events that have been run through this forum, games such as the Jedburgh Weekender a couple of years ago: viewforum.php?f=136 This was an airsoft event, not reenactment, and yet people were asked to prepare emplacements and take part in long patrols looking for small groups of enemies with a very, very small chance of contact = that to me is a hard core event, being asked to work as part of a 10 man squad is not.

I fail to see how allowing small groups to work independantly of the main force with specific objectives if required ruin gameplay. This is a discussion in which i did not make, i have only added my opinion.
.

How about if its not part of the plan, how about if the command team dont have the men to task to unnecesary actions like that.... how about if the left flank collapses because a section is two men short who have not returned to regroup with everyone else?

How about if the other side dont know you're doing this and think you're cheating when you're spotted wandering around?

I think you're also failing to see that your play style wasnt part of the rules but you did it anyway?

Would you turn up to play football and then decide to run with the ball rugby style as you felt it was a better experience? Or would you play by the same rules as everyone else?

I myself with join you in saying that a real lone wolf is a problem, but when we are working in a roleplay environment using fieldcraft and judging every potential engagement (basically doing it properly) just because you dont understand or as some have said the skills to do so, dont get jealous and strike it out completely.

I predict that you are about to get pwned.

its seems thats its getting more super hardcore each game

I'm afraid you misunderstand the idea of 'super hardcore'. Besides the silly outfits, working in squads is pretty much the core definition of ww2 airsoft, and what 99% of the people attending want out of it: The camaraderie, the feeling of working together to achieve an objective, and being able to work alongside other squads, and more importantly engage against other squads.

All of that isn't 'super hardcore', hardcore, or whatever else you want to call it, it's fundamental to the concept of ww2 airsoft.

I myself with join you in saying that a real lone wolf is a problem, but when we are working in a roleplay environment using fieldcraft and judging every potential engagement (basically doing it properly) just because you dont understand or as some have said the skills to do so, dont get jealous and strike it out completely.

I predict that you are about to get pwned.

Christ, I've actually got to respond to that myself.

Are you seriously saying that the reason many object to what, by all accounts, is a selfish, disruptive and un-constructive sytle of play at an event designed very carefully to steer players in a very particular form of game play is because people aren't as good as you and they're jealous?

What are you? 12? Are you being serious? Being as you have never been to any other type of event, who the fuck are you to judge how well these people play or how good they are at field craft? Do you really think you're that good? It doesn't sound like you are, because if you were you would have been invisible at the weekend. Instead, people actively identified you and your squad as a disruptive bunch of knobbers ruining the event for people on both your side and the opposing force.

How far do you want to take this line of reasoning?

would you turn up to a dinner party and add more seasoning to your food because you felt that it would improve the expereince? or would you play by the same rules as everyone else?.

It's not so much adding seasoning, it's more throwing the meal out of the window and phoning for a takeaway...

I fail to see how allowing small groups to work independantly of the main force with specific objectives if required ruin gameplay. This is a discussion in which i did not make, i have only added my opinion.
.

How about if its not part of the plan, how about if the command team dont have the men to task to unnecesary actions like that.... how about if the left flank collapses because a section is two men short who have not returned to regroup with everyone else?

How about if the other side dont know you're doing this and think you're cheating when you're spotted wandering around?

I think you're also failing to see that your play style wasnt part of the rules but you did it anyway?

Would you turn up to play football and then decide to run with the ball rugby style as you felt it was a better experience? Or would you play by the same rules as everyone else?

in war would you tell your enemy your sending skimishers

in war should you tell the enemy that they have a chance of being sniped

in war would you tell your enemy that they need to be prepared

would you turn up to a dinner party and add more seasoning to your food because you felt that it would improve the expereince? or would you play by the same rules as everyone else?

I thought you didnt want realism, i thought you understood it was a game.

So using your 'the end justifies the means' logic its ok to cheat as you'd use any means neccesary in war.

Your food analogy is flawed. Consider the game the meal, the seasoning is the ability to choose one of the five or six player roles to tailor it to your style (sorry we dont have the brand of ketchup you want at this table)... using your analogy you've just brought your own curry sauce to someone dinner party... very rude indeed.

But i realise i'm wasting my time here.

You're right we're all jealous of your uber airsoft skills and cant play as well as you so have to hobble you with rules.

Your mates dad was in the army , that must make you a ninja by osmosis...

I mean none of the rest of us are ex forces are they?

It seems rather than cater for these type of players, its trying to be eradicated. you say its open day mentality yet, we use feild craft tactics and for the most part avoid uneccesary targets or groups that are to large, most the time if we engage we very rarely inflict full casualtys and retreat, the only reason we attacked a large group on saturday is because they were all eating tea and cake and their weapons were not in their hands, they had no sentry and were under the impression they were safe. Also note late saturday when 2 squads and an armoured car came after us when we were discovered, even before we had fired a shot. we had clear shots on about 15 men in front of us but no, we stayed perfectly still using field craft and evasion techniques. Sunday, when playing a a sniper role admittedly i did not inform an nco which can be faulted but we were playing a sniper role, we heard voices and immediately went to ground. They were less than 3 metres away before we had no choice but to open fire and retreat. yet again when they came looking for us we were hiding and managed to take out two yanks before one literally stepped on me holding a thompson. i am under the impression that you expect us to run around shoot everything we see... in which you are wrong.

You claim to know what you're doing and when to be stealthy yet it was plain to the rest of us you don't know as much as you think. The fact that you say you were discovered before firing a shot at one point kinda gives it away. The rest of zug 1 were annoyed on a number of occasions when you bimbled about, zigzagging in the open making a ton of noise. When we went to ground to avoid detection at one point I can only assume you got bored and wandered off as when we attacked you had disappeared. This I belive was the point you went to go and attack the tea party and broke the rules of engagement. A group we had all seen btw but opted to ignore for the moment as there was the more immediate threat of Brits attacking our CP. My intention was to then turn around with the men we had and the reenforcements from the CP defenders to take the tea parties position, rather than just piss them off as you did. As it was we were ordered back to HQ to regroup, an order you missed as you'd walked off, leaving you wandering blind about the area serving no real purpose and leaving your unit short handed for the next attack.

Also on the Sunday when you went into sniper role not only did you not tell me you were doing it you then left our flank open as you just went to sniper mode when the enemy approached. You failed to warn us we were being flanked by an enemy force which resulted in the whole squad being cut off, unable to reform the line ultimately destroyed.

but when we are working in a roleplay environment using fieldcraft and judging every potential engagement (basically doing it properly) just because you dont understand or as some have said the skills to do so, dont get jealous and strike it out completely.

I think perhaps you are used to playing in an enviroment were many players are totally lacking in field craft skills so have right to believe you are better. However the vast majority of WWII players do not fall into that category and would be quite franckly insulted by what you're suggesting. As for roleplaying, well I can't say I saw a great deal of that from yourselves.

just surrendering so were arent breaking a rule is absurd.

Not at all. That is exactly what would have happened. We're trying to recreated WWII in all of it many facets which includes the fear of death. If it was a choice between death and captivity when caught behind the lines then most would take the safer option.

I'm afraid you misunderstand the idea of 'super hardcore'. Besides the silly outfits, working in squads is pretty much the core definition of ww2 airsoft, and what 99% of the people attending want out of it: The camaraderie, the feeling of working together to achieve an objective, and being able to work alongside other squads, and more importantly engage against other squads.

All of that isn't 'super hardcore', hardcore, or whatever else you want to call it, it's fundamental to the concept of ww2 airsoft.

Absolutely, there is far far more to this genre of airsoft( or indeed any themed airsoft) than simply dressing up in WWII kit.

would you turn up to a dinner party and add more seasoning to your food because you felt that it would improve the expereince? or would you play by the same rules as everyone else?

if you want to play that game...

What are you talking about? If I went to a dinner party and took along my own ingredients to improve what the host had prepared, I would expect to be treated like the twat I was being.

Now, to use my earlier analogy, that'd be like turning up to an orgy and playing with a Warhammer set. (Whilst having a wank in the toilets)

I get the feeling this is no longer a discussion, its lack of understanding of evolving, you come across a "problem" you set up a discussion and then beat the shit out of it until it goes away.

I get the feeling you're breaking the first rule. Look at the poll.

seriously cptnight.... your own faction leaders and your own squad commander say 'it was a bit out of order really' and you still maintain you were in the right because other people dont understand fieldcraft?

which team were you playing on, i thought it was the axis, clearly it wasnt.

I get the feeling this is no longer a discussion, its lack of understanding of evolving

You say 'evolving', but I personally see it as 'devolving' or regressing, or whatever you want to call it, and as far as I can see, it's going back to catering to the 'Call of Duty' mindset I personally left modern airsoft because of.

would you turn up to a dinner party and add more seasoning to your food because you felt that it would improve the expereince? or would you play by the same rules as everyone else?

if you want to play that game...

I am guessing you don't know that many chefs?

Was it a joke? Because it is a VERY apt analogy, and I DO like expanding metaphor...

If your dinner party host is serving a MacDonald's Happy Meal, then indeed enhancing the experience is mandatory.

Most of us however prepare a more palatable meal, one that asking for the ketchup during would be considered a faux-pas, an insult to the chef.

I think you are just used to playing a less-nice meal [sic].

at the moment there are 2 roles, a sniper alone or a marksmen in a squad of 3+ of which doesnt accomadate for someone who wants to play a sniper with a friend.

Those are pretty specific to Joshs games, and iirc the 'sniper' role is a brand new one he hasn't used before.

At Arnhem back in March we were allowed by the unit commander to have a two man sniper picket (sniper & spotter), but that was a static position providing flank cover for the main force on an entrenched hilltop. The Allies were furious about that too.

It just isn't regarded as the done thing at WW2 games by many players.

There are plenty of opportunities for sneakiness and fieldcraft though, depends on the organiser, the scenario and the site.

Chees
Martin

You say 'evolving', but I personally see it as 'devolving' or regressing, or whatever you want to call it, and as far as I can see, it's going back to catering to the 'Call of Duty' mindset I personally left modern airsoft because of.

Spot on

I don't think asking players to stay in their squad is considered hard core, hard core would be:

only being able to eat food that is wrapped in period specific containers;
not being able to wear contemporary footwear or insisting that all players 'badge up' to resemble an exact unit;
performing hours of sentry duty with nothing happening (aka real army life!);
etc, etc, etc

Hang on, we all do that!

There does seem to be a bit of a playground mentality in that it's all a bit 'it's my game, my rules, and if you don't do what I say, you can't play'. And I can understand that if a paying adult gets bored of being told what to do, it doesn't seem too unreasonable that they would want to do their own thing, BUT on the other hand i can see why it would be annoying for those who do want to play as part of a squad and not have packs of wolves running around doing their own thing. But then again it is just a game and weather people want to be realistic or just want to do their own thing is really up to them as they are paying and would like to get (what they would consider) their moneys worth.

There does seem to be a bit of a playground mentality in that it's all a bit 'it's my game, my rules, and if you don't do what I say, you can't play'. And I can understand that if a paying adult gets bored of being told what to do, it doesn't seem too unreasonable that they would want to do their own thing, BUT on the other hand i can see why it would be annoying for those who do want to play as part of a squad and not have packs of wolves running around doing their own thing. But then again it is just a game and weather people want to be realistic or just want to do their own thing is really up to them as they are paying and would like to get (what they would consider) their moneys worth.

Absolutely... not.

The games are not run for profit, they are run as part of, and for, a community. There is no getting your moneys worth, and players are not 'customers'. There is an agreed 'contract of fun' that you WILL play by my rules at my game, and we will spend money, and lots of time making sure you have fun.

That is why there are long threads on booking games which explain what is and is not allowed, so people can make an informed choice about if they will enjoy it or not, and thus if they should book.

This 'consumerist' idea is part of the attitude problem. It is not a playground mentality, it is way of making sure that people who have spent their time and money on running a game are not doing it all for nothing, and those who have paid to come and take part in a game game are not disappointed because it runs differently to how they were told it was going to be. It makes sure both organiser and player get what they want. Because what they BOTH want is EQUAL.