Post-game discussion of rifle only concept

How about a maximum engagement distance for SMG's?

That's quite a difficult one as well. Relying on individual peoples guesstimates. It's why I don't like using anything high powered, I don't trust myself to judge distance for the minimum engagement distance accurately!!

There really is no simple solution to any of this.

EDIT; Oh and that wopuld start bringing the whole "airsofty" thing in. People standing just outside of range complaining that they were shot outside the maximum engagement range etc and anon.

Yeah I can't see that working, plus in the 'heat of battle' I would worry that people wouldn't think about a maximum engagement range. Its not like a minimum range that is enforced for safety reasons and for that reason I wouldnt trust all players to be a stringent with it.

well I still say hop off is the way to go for this style of game, halves the range and no guessing/honesty needed. The gun then works as it should historically as a weapon that can quickly provide a high volume of fire but only at short range. Gives it an advantage in certain tactical situations (close assaults/defence etc) and a disadvantage in more open terrain.

well I still say hop off is the way to go for this style of game, halves the range and no guessing/honesty needed.

I've been saying it for years! (and waiting someone else to do it and take credit for it!)

Yeah thinking about it hop off sounds like the way forward

I've been saying it for years! (and waiting someone else to do it and take credit for it!)

Always happy to oblige

been resisting as hard as i can but..... turning the hop off does not reduce range just gives an arcing trajectory that may actually increase range in most guns.some sites insist on cronoing guns with hop off as it has max velocity that way (in most cases) ,by adjusting the aim of the gun upward equal or even greater range is possible but the arc of flight makes sighting difficult.
if you want a non intrusive reduction in range use heavy bb's ,0.3g or higher will do it,turning off the hop wont.
sorry i had to say it.

I have to disagree and, I'm not sorry to say it. Without hop, the gun is reliant on fps on it's own. Hop creates the backspin which gives improved range and accuracy, two things which WW2 smg's certainly didn't have. I owned several pre hop Marui guns and, they were nowhere near as good as those with a hop. Same goes for every other airsoft toy I've ever had, both gas and electric. Try telling an owner of a WE Browning that hop doesn't matter and, see how far you get.

As for people being gay and arcing guns upwards, if I saw anyone doing that, I'd shoot them myself (with my hop on Tanaka K98!), as would any other organiser unless I'm very much mistaken.

Well I have to admit thats my experience, Im not a gun expert like Gav but I would say that you nearly double the range hop off too hop set. The easiest way to settle it Gav is on the weekend, as your dirty Hun you turn your hop off, Ill keep mine on and see if you can reach me

im not going to argue,but i'll take the pepsi challenge
look at a footballer,if he wants to kick long end to end of the pitch then its an arcing ball if its close and on goal then its back spun flat trajectory kick. i hate the football analogy but it fits the description.

LOL, I use a STEN and M1921 Thompson without hops and I can tell you that the range is very short. In a normal game you haven't a hope against a hopped TM Thompson (or anything else) and need to resort to guile, cunning or luck to get a shot on target. It IS possible to get some distance by pointing the thing 45 degrees up in the air and rely on gravity to drop a BB gently onto a fairly distant target - but they aren't artillery guns!

Well, if we find that "hop off" actually increases range there is a solution - Hop off and low fps springs.

I have copied this here from the old Eagles thread as similar questions came up on a recent game thread.

Just my two pence worth Craig.
First off we should bear in mind that airsoft by the very nature of the limited range of the weapons is very much CQB orrientated regardless of what you do, so there is a false element to it all.

Squad leader has an SMG. Squad leader is a 'trusted player' (where it all falls downs as that is open to interpretation and it sounds like I'm being rude, which I don't mean to be) who buys into the whole concept and commands his squad rather than getting stuck into the shooting. We tend to opperate in 4 man units but I see the squad as a ten ish man unit which the squad leader is commanding.
So called real steel ammo limits. Ie: 60 rounds for rifles (German, what did other countries supply to their troops?). 180 rounds for SMG's (or however many mags were carried by each country with correct loads of ammunition, three mags at 30 rounds each is 90 rounds... getting tight isn't it?). That is your lot for the day unless re-supplied from stores in the control of the CO. Electric guns (Garands in particular as they make up the bulk of the electric rifles) to have real steel magazine limits or something close as I think that was a big fire power advantage before at events. Similar with the SMG type guns, real magazine limits. You would have to be sensible here as Tanaka magazines are not readily available and hold ten rounds, five more than they should, but then stipper clips are not available either making the reload process very slow compared to the genuine article. I appear to be going on a tangent, hopefully you see the point I'm trying to make, sensible is the way forward.
Support weapons should again be limited. 600 rounds? Make it require thought before shooting.
I'm increasingly of the opinion that 300 plus rounds per life is just silly. I was about to write that I've never got near to using that many, but then I generally get myself shot at stupid moments anyway. Oopsie!
To sum up, proper realistic ammo limits and limited number of SMG's going to squad leaders who generally won't use them.

Ah, but Sean, you say, what about the Russians with their massed Ppsh41's and Germans with their Mp44's? Well, they were an advantage, but give them the real ammunition limits they had and again they will have to use them wisely. They might have a huge advantage in the morning as they charge in, but when they are down to ten rounds at lunchtime with no chance of re-supply they will be shooting a lot more carefully. Make the Ammo real and encourage people to use the weapon as they would and you should be somewhere near. You have to make it part of the scenario.

I do prefer the rifles games now as there tends to be a lot less 'spray and prey' about them and a lot more sneakiness.

That was about ten pence worth wasn't it?

So called real steel ammo limits. Ie: 60 rounds for rifles (German, what did other countries supply to their troops?).

Some 100 rounds for the Brits and affiliates. This is regulation though, in reality riflemen would often load up on ammo as much as they could.

Ah, but Sean, you say, what about the Russians with their massed Ppsh41's and Germans with their Mp44's?

Not only them. Resistance fighters loaded up on Stens and captured MPs (they would often discard rifles as useless for their kind of warfare), Paras loading up on SMGs, patrols of regular infantry units equipped with SMGs as a matter of course and so on. More than 10mln SMGs took part on all the sides in WWII, not a small number at all. Especially by the end of the war they were a very important part of any firefight.

Well, they were an advantage, but give them the real ammunition limits they had and again they will have to use them wisely.

Real ammo limits work and then they do not. They are obviously better than the standard hi-cap model of 1bln bullets in the air at any time, but since the airsoft engagement distances are so close the ammo tends to be quite effective, especially with auto fire. Long range stand off firefights simply do not happen. Also the very ability to walk the fire into the target provides a massive effectiveness boost, not corresponding to real engagements. Real steel limits alone do not solve the problem.

I myself am with the "hop off" people. Since in real life rifles have 2-3 times greater effective range than SMGs they should also have this advantage in airsoft. Either hop off or reducing the power to 100-150fps should work. Rifle fire would easily beat SMG fire by precision and range and SMGs would become close assault/defence weapons.

Ah, now, this is why you need to come to one of Craig's rifles only games Mr Nurglitch. We have had some good long range plinking at one another there and very interesting it was too, as fire and movement begins to become effective and you start to see more tactical movement employed where people try to winkle others out, rather than simply spraying the target and trusting that one BB will get through. But that was all rifles and I think the introduction of SMG's would bugger that up.
I would like to see SMG's at events with rifles in the dominance, but fundamentally the SMG's shoot faster and have bigger magazines. The engagement distances are so low that the sMG will always have the advantage in airsoft, even if you turn hops off etc. Which is why I'm not a fan of that idea. It might help, but I don't think it solves the problem. Needs to be tried of course, we are all expressing our opinions on this without having seen it tried in a game. Rifles only has been tried and did work and I for one loved it and endorse it.
Yes, there were lots of SMG produced, but many went to dispatch riders, tank crew, etc. Front line the rifle was still the predominant weapon. Yes it is changing, but the rifle still should be the major weapon represented. Yes, there are exceptions, but rifles should generally be to the fore.
Troops at the front may have wanted to go into action with more ammunition, but they did not always have it available. Plenty of recorded instances of ammunition being very severely restricted. For a full days action I think 60 rounds for a rifle and 180 for an SMG is generous! Please don't remind me of that at Crete, lads.
I don't think there is a fully workable solution to the problem, the gun ranges are too low to make it realistic and workable, we just need to try things and see what makes it interesting.
You find some good pictures don't you? I liked that one. Are they glider pilots by any chance? They formed their own unit at Arnhem I believe?

Ah, now, this is why you need to come to one of Craig's rifles only games Mr Nurglitch.

I'll be at Chambois so there

We have had some good long range plinking at one another there and very interesting it was too

Not the long range I meant. In some cases infantry could come under accurate rifle fire from 500-600m away (Monte Cassino is a good example, current day Afghanistan is another) and SMGs are pretty much useless at this distance. The airsoft engagement distances are some 60m max and 0-60m span is not a lot of a bracket to properly differentiate weapons.

I would like to see SMG's at events with rifles in the dominance, but fundamentally the SMG's shoot faster and have bigger magazines. The engagement distances are so low that the sMG will always have the advantage in airsoft, even if you turn hops off etc. Which is why I'm not a fan of that idea. It might help, but I don't think it solves the problem. Needs to be tried of course, we are all expressing our opinions on this without having seen it tried in a game.

Exactly. I don't religiously believe in the hop off or reduced power, I just think it may be a workable solution. This simply needs trying.

I don't think there is a fully workable solution to the problem, the gun ranges are too low to make it realistic and workable, we just need to try things and see what makes it interesting.

In a way this very solution has already been implemented for years. On modern sites bolt actions shoot 500fps and automatic weapons shoot 330fps. It seems to be working. Maybe 500/330/100fps would work too.

You find some good pictures don't you? I liked that one. Are they glider pilots by any chance? They formed their own unit at Arnhem I believe?

Nope, as far as I know they are British paras at Arnhem. The armoury list of Polish 1st SBS lists exactly as many Stens as Lee Enfields. They would be assigned according to mission and were by no means NCO/officer-only weapon. Patrols would also be routinely armed with SMGs.

Polish resistance soldiers:

Poland (Home Army) received around 11000 Stens in the 42-44 period. Add to that 700 locally manufactured and superior BÅ‚yskawica SMGs, unknown amount of direct Sten copies and captured weapons and you can get the picture. Germans going against resistance fighters would be encountering a huge saturation of automatic fire. Situation may have been similar in other countries supplied by SOE, I don't have any data though. And let's not forget the horrific amount of automatic fire that any American squad could dish out, both with Garands and M1 Carbines. So whilst 1939-1943 was a bolt action era, it started changing fairly rapidly in 1944.

I prefer to look at it the other way around. Airsoft is an artificial recreation of the reality of battle and actually has very little resemblance to the real thing, other than superficially (largely visually). Game planning is built around a game concept and it is this game concept that dictates weapon mix, ammo limits, gun powers. All games are different, all sites are different, all scenarios are different. Rules are constructed to make a concept 'work' and not present players with a lost cause as no one likes to be ridiculously disadvantaged for an entire weekend - there have to be highs and lows.

Therefore, inventing rules without a game to apply them to is a bit pointless. Barely firing a BB all weekend would be ace for one event and poo for another. I like games with awesome amounts of fire power. I like games with little trigger time. I like games that feature high powered 'snipers'. I like rifle-only games.

Trying to mandate 'real steel' ammo quantities or force everyone to engage at spitting distance is somewhat daft. It is the game concept that is paramount, weapons and ammo are just a means to an end.