The Kit Pic Thread

The Thompson was used in World War II in the hands of Allied troops as a weapon for scouts, non-commissioned officers (corporal, sergeant and higher ranking), and patrol leaders.

so nothing about being issued to PFC's im afraid.

could be wrong but i've never seen any pictures etc. of thompson's being used by PFC's.

and wikipedia is any better?

Okay, did a google search and came up with this page:
http://ww2f.com/wwii-general/29129-e-ba ... atoon.html

Thompson SMGs were available for issue in the company HQ (there were officially 12) when the mission called for these. Some ncos and officers just carried one instead of their rifle by preference.

I read about the loadout of a squad for a certain mission, they had all SMGs and carbines with 2 Garands.

So from that info it's fine for a PFC to have a tommy gun... not very common, but it did happen!

and wikipedia is any better?

Okay, did a google search and came up with this page:
http://ww2f.com/wwii-general/29129-e-ba ... atoon.html

Thompson SMGs were available for issue in the company HQ (there were officially 12) when the mission called for these. Some ncos and officers just carried one instead of their rifle by preference.

I read about the loadout of a squad for a certain mission, they had all SMGs and carbines with 2 Garands.

So from that info it's fine for a PFC to have a tommy gun... not very common, but it did happen!

Never trust wikipedia lol.

I could go and edit the page on thompsons now to say they replaced custard pies in US service and two were issued to every man.

Its open source and modified by all and sundry. Good to give you a grounding but not gospal by all means.

I would think its safe to say that SMGs in the US army (as with the brits) on 'paper' are an nco's weapon but when you consider that after horrific losses in Normandy there were NCO shortges and privates often found themsleves leading sections. Now if in your section CPL Jones gets the good news and ends up ina body bag, you're not going to leave the sections short range firepower with him are you, no you'd take it with you and bin one of the rifles.

For this very reason late war German squads often have a surplus of mgs in them.

standard issue

* 1 Squad Leader(SSgt)-------M1 Garand Rifle, or Thompson SMG
* 1 Assistant Leader(Sgt)------M1 Garand Rifle, Carbine, or SMG
* 7 Riflemen ------------------M1 Garand Rifles and (2 max) Carbines
* 1 Machine Gunner-----------M1919A4/6, and a Carbine
* 1 Assistant Gunner----------M1 Carbine
* 1 Ammo bearer---------M1 Garand Rifle

what you were saying is for designated missions, and there is still no actual evidence of PFC's being issued with thompsons.

and with the guy above wearing m43, by which time the thompson had pretty much been replaced by the M3A1, i still can't see a PFC in the airborne being issued with a thompson.

EDIT: kraut, just take the chevrons off, hardly any men actually wore them. the only thing that would make an NCO or officer recognised would be the horizontal or vertical tripe on the front and back of the helmets.

Right, thats 'paper' strengh, in reality you cant field proper platoons like that once you're in contact.

Paper strengh exists on the day you're shipped out from garrison and in the heads of wargamers.

For example the on paper a brit airborne section carried one sten gun. The division had a pool of abut 6000 of them to be issued out accordingly.

Its not on the paper strengh but sections ofter had two or three.

Similarly the Hallams in Normandy 'on paper' had ten man sections with one bren gun, in reality they had eight man sections with two brens per section.

On of their company commanders 'on paper' had a webley revolve, he actually carried an Mp40 for the majority of the war.

Now as said, illness, attrition and the confusion of war mean that you rapidly lose the paper strenght and soldiers being soldiers get hold of the stuff that works. You probably will not find an official order issuing M1a1s to private soldiers. You wont find one from the war office authorising an eight man, two bren rifle section either... but it happended.

From the Brittany game at EAG sunday

Looking a little farby/rought as it is work in progress. For this game it was intended to look like 1944, FFI/resister that had some of his 1940 uniform or a deserter from the army of the armistice.

I had intended only to wear the greatcoat round the safe zone over resitance kit, but the weather made it required in play.

In my best elmer fudd voice! Be wewwy wewwy qwite, I is being hunted by gewmans!

Is that a LARP axe in your belt? If so nice one!

yep, I have a pair of throwing larp axes for pirate larp.

I loaned one to Kroot who did actually get an axe kill during the game!

When my team did GRU Spetsnaz as a modern impression i used to have a larp fire axe tucked into my belt.

Got a couple of 'kills' with that in fibua settings.

Angel, that sure looks good, I think you can blame the colour run on cheap wartime production

I think in the main, the allied side looked real fine that day.

Just took out my German "Ost" Winter loadout for a spin, the new Hexagon PPsh is awsome, I recommend fully!

(assume I just stole it off a dead Russian if you are bothered about the MP40 mag pouches!)

Hopefully will be recieving my WW2 Soviet Summer and Winter kit from Trident Military soon (at last a shop that sells Fat Git sizes for Soviet WW2 gear! Expensive though....)-- attachment is not available ---- attachment is not available --

looks bloody awesome! i do like the german winter kit.

Cheers bud! With the woolen tunic and trousers its perfect for this absolutely crazy weather we are having in the UK at the mo....

Right, thats 'paper' strengh, in reality you cant field proper platoons like that once you're in contact.

Paper strengh exists on the day you're shipped out from garrison and in the heads of wargamers.

For example the on paper a brit airborne section carried one sten gun. The division had a pool of abut 6000 of them to be issued out accordingly.

Its not on the paper strengh but sections ofter had two or three.

Similarly the Hallams in Normandy 'on paper' had ten man sections with one bren gun, in reality they had eight man sections with two brens per section.

On of their company commanders 'on paper' had a webley revolve, he actually carried an Mp40 for the majority of the war.

Now as said, illness, attrition and the confusion of war mean that you rapidly lose the paper strenght and soldiers being soldiers get hold of the stuff that works. You probably will not find an official order issuing M1a1s to private soldiers. You wont find one from the war office authorising an eight man, two bren rifle section either... but it happended.

[link]http://kiwiveterans.spdev.co.nz/times-produce-events-and-events-produce-the-men[/link] Similar perspective from an NZ Veteran here:

Patrick: What was it like to be posted into a new platoon with a whole new group of men?

Stuart: Well, um when I came to platoon, other men came with me. The platoon was made up of people who had been there for some time, people who had been through a fair number of actions, people who had never been in action and people who had just arrived. It was a mixed lot. A platoon is made up of 33 men. That’s 3 sections of 10 men each and each section has a corporal in charge and a lance corporal as a second in charge. It has 3 sections of 10 men each, that’s 30 men. Then it has a platoon headquarters which is an officer, platoon commander and a sergeant, and one what they call them, runner, a dog’s body. Does everything, runs here, takes messages here and does all sorts of things. That makes up 35 men we never went into action with 35 men. We were lucky if we had 25, we thought we were well equipped. That’s because men got killed, men got wounded and a certain number went on leave. Then in every action we had what they call L.O.B which, stands for Left Out of Battle. You always took 2 or 3 men, probably one from each section, 3, 4, 5, and they were kept out of the fighting. The theory being that if either the platoon got wiped out, you’ve still had the nucleus to form a new one.

snip

Patrick: What your thoughts when you were preparing for that first time up at the front lines? How did you prepare yourself mentally?

Stuart: I can’t remember, I think all we did was make sure we had ample ammunition, and made sure we had one or two grenades. I got rid of my rifle and bayonet and got a Tommy gun which always had a lot of bullets. If you kept your finger on the trigger all your bullets are gone in no time at all. I taped two magazines together, so that instead of replacing magazines, I would just take it out and turn it over and put the full one in with the empty one underneath. In addition I carried a little a box of .45 bullets to replace the magazines and they were heavy, you know I didn’t like carrying those, but I carried them because if you didn’t have anything to fire you were a dead duck weren’t you!

and wikipedia is any better?

Okay, did a google search and came up with this page:
http://ww2f.com/wwii-general/29129-e-ba ... atoon.html

Thompson SMGs were available for issue in the company HQ (there were officially 12) when the mission called for these. Some ncos and officers just carried one instead of their rifle by preference.

I read about the loadout of a squad for a certain mission, they had all SMGs and carbines with 2 Garands.

So from that info it's fine for a PFC to have a tommy gun... not very common, but it did happen!

A PFC has a Thomspon in the Gospel according to Band of Brothers, isn't that what you boys take as read most of the time?

Gadge is right, if someone got shot who had a Thompson, it would have been picked up by the next person as they were a popular gun. The Thompson was by no means completely replaced by the grease gun, and was still used well into Vietnam.

First Aid pouches weren't always worn on the helmet, plenty of pics suggesting that they were worn on the webbing as well as the helmet.

In my opinion, if someone has an airsoft thompson, theyre more than welcome to play in a game as a PFC if it's what they have,... fair enough, you can say that "on paper" only Officers and NCOs had them, however, in airsoft its almost the 'default' gun for allied airsofters,.. especially ones you'd hope wouldnt turn up with colonel ensignia at their first event etc.

The M3A1 Grease gun was not a replacement for the Thompson, it was a more cost effective gun, being made out of pressed metal and being smaller, with no wooden parts. It was also bloody ugly and very heavy and ergonomically no where near as well designed as the Thompson. It was issued to newer troops, however the Thompson saw service, as people have been stating, at the start of the Vietnam war, before it was replaced by weapons like the M14 and (I may be wrong on this) the M2 Carbine.

If someone gave me a choice between a Thompson and a Greasegun the Thompson would win every day...

Not so sure that the Thomspon was replaced by an M14, that was probably more to do with the replacement of the M1 Garand.

I dont think the US army superceded the Thompson with any sort of high cabilber sub-machine gun to this date. Althought apparently the .45 round is coming back into fashion with the likes of the Kriss and UMP45.

[

First Aid pouches weren't always worn on the helmet, plenty of pics suggesting that they were worn on the webbing as well as the helmet.

I've jusy gone through three books (including the Michel De Trez one that pictures the original uniforms worn by Winters etc) and I've let to find a *single* pic of a an 82 or 101st para in Normandy wearing a first aid pack on his helmet.

In over 200 pictures i've viewed taken of the Normandy campaign the vast majority have either a plain uncovered lid, a bare net a few have scrim and two have covers made out of paracute canopy.

If you're worried about kit being right and having the right stuff (i.e thompsons with PFC) prob best to have a more representative lid first?

I mean thats an easy fix surely whereas an AEG swap is expensive?

I've jusy gone through three books (including the Michel De Trez one that pictures the original uniforms worn by Winters etc) and I've let to find a *single* pic of a an 82 or 101st para in Normandy wearing a first aid pack on his helmet.

M43's and first aid pouch on helmet is post Normandy, more during Market Garden. That's is when we have been talking about...

Yeha but surely Tom is wearing Normandy era M42s rather than market garden era M43s?

Which is what i'm getting at, namely picking holes about thompsons is less important than having your helmet and uniform match for the unit you portray at the right era.

I'm not having a go Alex I'm just saying if you're going to be really pedantic about small arms its worth sorting your own kit out first you know.

Personally I think you guys have come on leaps and bounds and look top notch as far as I can tell as a layman on US kit.

But it seems a shame that if you''re doing re-enactment shows that you're going with the wrong size helmet icons etc rather than doing them as they were done by the veterans. As i always say 'its your hobby' and I dont really care how someone dresses up to play airsoft but withyour guys really pushing up the bar to do the 506th well these days it seems a bit weird to stick with one or two 'hollywoodisms' when everything else is done so accuratley.

Like i say not having a go, just a point for chatting about, to be honest I'd liek to feature you guys in AI at some point if you're interested.

PM me if you'd like to.