The looks-like system

Not sure about this.

Striving towards a greater level of accuracy is a good thing.
Making rules about it is a bad thing.

It all seems to have been fairly self-regulating up until now so I agree with the "If it ain't broke don't try and fix it" ethos. Raising barriers to entry (even if they are only percieved barriers rather than real ones) is going to hurt us in the long run.

I ask have there been any instances when kit level has annoyed people at a CIA game, not just little niggles but big ones. Lets not be too specific we do not want to point fingers do we

quote="Yith"]

At UCAP it was so dark that the guns used didn’t matter so much as the only people that knew what they were was the person holding them.

Oh I dunno... it was cool seeing 4 sten Mkii's on the brit side... I certainly noticed them!

That’s like any new toy we look to see who else has one but inside the tunnels for most of the time the Germans may have been carrying shiny brass garden sprayers for all I could see of them.

I had a HK G36 with me that I knew was well under the 330 fps but didn't like to use it due to trying to keep to a WW2 gun.

I ask have there been any instances when kit level has annoyed people at a CIA game, not just little niggles but big ones. Lets not be too specific we do not want to point fingers do we

Yes, but not at a CiA WW2 game.....

My first problem was that there are people who come to the game, and there will, I think, be more and more like this, who do not come from Airsoft but from re-enactment or just simply an interest in WWII. So for these people getting a gun can a be tricky, if not damn right impossible, until they get to become members of CIA and consequently AFRA - So I was originally on the 'keep the looks alike' side of the fence.

Anyone coming from a reenactment background should have a defence to purchase from their membership of their group, or AFRA. Anyone else can (as has happened in the past) borrow.

My first problem was that there are people who come to the game, and there will, I think, be more and more like this, who do not come from Airsoft but from re-enactment or just simply an interest in WWII. So for these people getting a gun can a be tricky, if not damn right impossible, until they get to become members of CIA and consequently AFRA - So I was originally on the 'keep the looks alike' side of the fence.

Anyone coming from a reenactment background should have a defence to purchase from their membership of their group, or AFRA. Anyone else can (as has happened in the past) borrow.

Quite right, though if you're new then the thought of asking to borrow a gun, I would hope, would be a little intimidating. I know I would consider myself damned impertinent.

I like the 'St Lo kit loan' thread, as it gives the person who is loaning the gear the chance to say what they are willing to lend, rather then the other way around, which I think is helpful.

I ask have there been any instances when kit level has annoyed people at a CIA game, not just little niggles but big ones. Lets not be too specific we do not want to point fingers do we

Yes, but not at a CiA WW2 game.....

And were the offenders told they couldn't play? Or even given a little talking to?

Is anyone really going to tell a newcomer that they need to pack up and piss off because they'ce turned up as a Fallschirm-Jaeger with an AK, knowing that by doing so you'll never see them again?

Wlakdek is also right about people borrowing guns off players they don't know. They won't want to do it and if they only have proscribed weapons they simply won't turn up.

My not very valuble contribution is to leave it as it is. They are there to set out what someone trying a game for the first time would need. We have discussed a lot in other threads about being inclusive and I think these rules are part of it. We let potential new players know that they can try this strange hobby without having to spend large amounts on new equipment first. We need fresh blood if we are to grow and continue and these rules help. Many of us have seen what the prescriptive route does to the re-enactor movement with great looking and fully equipped infantry divisions of one person.
By encouraging someone to try a game with minimum kit we can introduce them to the scene and educate them as to what to buy and what NOT to buy for their chosen loadouts.

I do agree with Chomley that there will be different games with varying rules and it is for the organisers to state what rules will apply. This I hope will result in many games to chose from some more suitable for a beginner in WW2 airsoft than others.

I ask have there been any instances when kit level has annoyed people at a CIA game, not just little niggles but big ones. Lets not be too specific we do not want to point fingers do we

Yes, but not at a CiA WW2 game.....

And were the offenders told they couldn't play? Or even given a little talking to?

Is anyone really going to tell a newcomer that they need to pack up and piss off because they'ce turned up as a Fallschirm-Jaeger with an AK, knowing that by doing so you'll never see them again?

Wlakdek is also right about people borrowing guns off players they don't know. They won't want to do it and if they only have proscribed weapons they simply won't turn up.

To our tiny sub-group of CiA games which is only four games a year. There are plenty of others in the calendar.

To our tiny sub-group of CiA games which is only four games a year. There are plenty of others in the calendar.

Equally, our even tinier sub-group of PBI games is only another couple or so, and we've already started to tighten the count-as rules, with no noticable problems.

There are plenty of other ww2 games out there, all with their own levels of kit requirements. I think this discussion is really what CiA players feel about CiA games, and regarding that, I'm personally happy to see the rules 'firmed up' as it were.

Yes I like to try and introduce some of my friends I work with to this and they are not even airsofters or re-enactors but because I know they have an interest in WW2 and they will like it once they try it, I encourage them to give it a go.

However I am happy to lend them an AK for a day and see how they shape up but maybe not something more precious to me.
The great thing about CIA is that you rove from site to site across Britain so sooner or later there will be a game around here. Other WW2 games are quite often out of range for some people hence I like things as they are.

If I tell them for the first game it is going to cost them £300 I know what they will say.

Sounds like the decision has already been made.

I think that the rules should be amended, incidentally I remember someone using an MP5 and an M14 with Sniper scope at Arnhem. There is enough of a base of guns out there to atleast remove some of the newer looking guns. I personally think removing the MP5 & AK folding stock from the list is a reasonable suggestion.
I may have mentioned this before but I feel that immersion is a big factor in the way in games work. At Husky someone toting a Led Zepplin tshirt and AK spoilt it a bit.
I also think that with CiA WW2 Games, a lend/lease scheme should be trialed, there in, if there are any new players who wish to come but do not have a period weapon then they can ask on the thread and anybody willing to lend them one can offer to do so. This could eliminate the chance of said Rock Fan with AK.

For instance.

New player looking for Allied weapons for up and coming game, anything will do.

Although obviously it'll probably be a Thompson lets face it haha.

i think a revue of the rule in say,,, 6 months. by then the chinese might have every ww2 weapon covered for about 150-200 quid.the uniform rule seems to be self governing. i didnt book into husky till i had a full US arborne set up, even though chommers insisted i used the counts as/looks like rule, many others have done the same. give it half a year and see what happens in the ww2 aeg/rifle market, then decide.it works..... for now.

if there are any new players who wish to come but do not have a period weapon then they can ask on the thread and anybody willing to lend them one can offer to do so.

Never going to happen.

I have an AK as my spare. If they are not allowed then I'll have to go home early if my MP40 breaks as I'm not prepared to borrow a gun. The reasoning is that If I break my OWN gun I can decide how and when I want to repair/replace it. If I break someone else's I don't have that option.

Financially, 2009 is very different from 2008 for most people. Weapons are far and away the most expensive items in airsoft and anything that involves spending hundreds of pounds to comply with the "rules" of a hobby that we do maybe 5 times a year is going to go down like a turd in a punchbowl.

It hasn't been a problem yet so let's not make it one.

At Husky someone toting a Led Zepplin tshirt and AK spoilt it a bit.

I'm pretty sure that person had a smock on earlier and took it off due to the heat.

Well I'm sorry... that's just not on. If you feel the need to take a smock off then make sure you have something decent on underneath. If not... then call yourself out of the game. Simple. He could have taken the t-shirt off and kept the smock on for instance.

That shite just ain't fair on the people who try... He just clearly didn't get what the whole game was about.

It's that sort of thoughtlessness that really annoys me.

On the other hand if your MP40 goes down and you have to switch to an AK, that's hardly the same thing. A quick discussion with an organiser should sort it.

I'm pretty sure that person had a smock on earlier and took it off due to the heat.

Well I'm sorry... that's just not on. If you feel the need to take a smock off then make sure you have something decent on underneath. If not... then call yourself out of the game. Simple. He could have taken the t-shirt off and kept the smock on for instance.

That shite just ain't fair on the people who try... He just clearly didn't get what the whole game was about.

It's that sort of thoughtlessness that really annoys me.

Totally agree, that's what pissed me off. Yes he did have a smock on, but tough sh*t, even a plain green tshirt would've been better. I also agree that it is about the amount of effort you make not just turning up in a splinter smock with an AK.

Show me a man who will jump out of an airplane, and I'll show you a man who will fight!
General James M. Gavin

CRY HAVOC AND LET LOOSE THE DOGS OF WAR

 

I can see both points of view, its really great to be involved with a game where the uniforms are up to a specified standard(as at lightning) But I thought i distinctly rememnber that CIA as the leader of the ww2 scene in the uk was set up to be inclusive and although most of us know each other, we shouldnt put barriers percieved or otherwise that might prevent people from giving it a go. I thought the intent of the small subgroups was for people to be able to focus on more accurate kit IF THEY WANTED TO...... We havent seen too much lookalike stuff for a while and long may that continue, but by making too many rules we run the risk of excluding people however few and far between they may be ..... we want people to come dont we? once they do the bug bites deep and getting the kit right becomes a major obsession........ now wheres my credit card....... i feel the need to buy a new loadout.........

On the other hand if your MP40 goes down and you have to switch to an AK, that's hardly the same thing. A quick discussion with an organiser should sort it.

So it's a rule for some people but not others?
Or a rule for some times but not others?
Or a rule that's not really a rule?

With the exception of Iron Maiden T-shirt Man I have yet to attend a game where someone didn't "get" the kit and weapons requirements so I still fee that this is addressing a problem we don't have.

Here's the thing. Three years ago when we thought about the possibility of a 'proper' WW2 game we had a problem. Very few people had WW2 uniforms, little choice in WW2 weapons and conventional reenactors wouldn't have been interested. We worked up a list of weapons that vaguely looked right and an incredibly loose kit requirement along with info on how to put a cheap look together.

It was the only possible way to get 50 players together, knowing full well you could probably only gather ten or fifteen jerry and Brits with pukka kit in the whole UK and in any case would they want to travel to Derbyshire? There were quite a few US, mainly airborne, but still not enough for a full side. Sure there were more Thompsons there than a Thompson shop but the thing that blew us away was the number of people who went out and bought kit for the game. The Catch 22 was broken - they had always fancied the idea of WW2 kit but there was no point as there were no games. Take a look back at the old pics and I think there was only a couple of chaps in Flectarn.

Fast forward to today when there is a plethora of WW2 guns and stacks of very cheap uniforms and there is really no need to put forward such low standards. So, speaking for CiA (and only for CiA events) given that we have decided only to do small events from now on it gives us the opportunity to organise games we want to play and how we want to play it. Its nothing to do with stitch-counting or elitism, we really can't be arsed to put in hundreds of hours of our time just to introduce people to the genre, not any more anyway. It mind sound harsh, but ask yourselves - would you? If the answer is yes, that's fab, we'll give you every support to publicise the event through the forum, hell we have even provided a 'how to organise an event guide'. We have done the hard work for three years, give us a break and let us enjoy ourselves a bit!

As I've pointed out several times now, this is a CiA thing - loads of choice for punters now, plenty of styles of play, plenty of levels of kit. CiA is only one organiser of games - we have always tried our best to give players a good weekend, tried loads of ideas and had lots of 'firsts' along with many mistakes and frankly we are gobsmacked players have stuck with us, very humbling. However, things move on. Worst scenario is that it all becomes too much of a bother with no reward and we don't want that. Hence a bit of refocusing, making our events distinctive and, above all, enjoyable to both us as well as the players.

I understand entirely that the idea is simply to make for better games - and also that the organisers who put so much time and effort into all of this want to feel that they are progressing and doing the games that they really want to do.

However...

The price of that will be hauling down the "inclusive" banner. Maybe that doesn't matter any more but harking back to a recent thread about the lifespan of an airsofter, the hardcore players that we have now will eventually dwindle as partners, kids, redundancy, whatever takes its toll. My concern is that the old ethos that led me to become a part of all this will be gone and that there won't be enough replacements. I suppose only time will tell.

Oh yes, you are right Beds, it still matters.

We are not abandoning the idea - we provide a forum to foster it, encourage others to run games, encourage new players onto the scene and the 'old' looks-like guides are still there at the top of the page for anyone to adopt. But we (CiA) can't do it all, nor want to. I pretty much burnt myself out last year, not just doing our events but going to every other game and training day to lend support. But if it gets to be a grind then why waste precious spare (& family) time on it? Sure, people come and people go (staggering how many really!) and yes, things are tight at the moment (I'm drawing on savings at the moment to have a bit of enjoyment in my twilight years ) but meh, that's life. If no one turns up to our events then we'll know we got it wrong!

Heh, its just a bit of a change for 40 players, four times a year, that's all.

Totally agree, enjoyed myself at the CiA events I have been to and will strive to attend as many as I can. I'm just grateful for the chance and a big thankyou
Bit off topic but when you say you'll only be doing small events, do you mean no more weekenders?