The looks-like system

Ah, that's nice of you Alex, I wasn't fishing for compliments. Right from the beginning we ran games we wanted to play on the assumption that if we wanted to events like that, others would too!

Small events as in small numbers, easier to manage, less hassle, more tension, more fun. If it comes to fruition our September (probably) game will be a weekender.

Im mainly staying out of this as my feelings are obvious but...

For the record one of the reasons PBI was set up was to focus on more 're-enactment' type events as i personally wasnt enjoying what i tend to call 'free for all' events where *any* wwii kit is ok and you get some historically 'interesting' activities like US airborne fighting battles set in 1940 etc.

Now no ones had an issue with the tight kit restrictions at a PBI event (and we've had 30 - 40 players at each one) so why get the hump if CiA decide to up the standard a bit?

Its not like you can no longer use this forum, its not like you can no longer play WWII airsoft.

All it means is that if you want to take part in some high detail, small scale *specialist* games that have had tons of work put in.... well you have to put in some work too.

And its not about cost. At Lightning you could play with a pistol and in civvies. Many did.

Having an accurate loadout and an appropriate gun does not mean breaking the bank.

As CW says, the five of us set up CiA years ago to get the games we wanted to enjoy, nobody makes a penny out of CiA (or PBI) games, its a labour of love and you've got to feel that love to put the work in. If you're running a game but inside thinking 'this isnt what i wanted at all' then whats the point.

There is now a WWII event nealry every month (sometimes more) we're spoilt for choice and to be honest in my opinion having various accuracy levels of games benefits us all, if every airsoft wwii game had a set 'rules set' it woudl get very dull indeed. Rules are a framework around which we play and enjoy our games, they are not set in stone..

The main onjection here seems to be threefold.

1. My back up gun isnt period

2. I dont want to lend a wwii gun to a mate and have no period spares

3. New airsofters wont move across.

Well..

1. As mentioned we all lend each other kit and guns... I simply dont play in modern kit very much anymore (other than for stuff for AI) I sold most my modern guns to buy wwii ones. ask yourself how often do you play modern airsoft these days after getting into wwii and how much modern stuff to you have sitting on shelves or in the garage gathering dust?

2. Surely an aeg is an aeg and given the build quality of some of the new wwii stuff I think they would be far less likely to bend your mp40 by running into a tree with it than you would with an marui ak.

3. Come on, we all know airsofters just need an excuse to buy new kit! I bought a bargain pair of 1950s jungle boots last week and now i'm researching what i need for a 'malayan emergency' impression... the odds of a malayan emergency game coming up are however astronomically slim

Well maybe it's just me but seeing a non-period weapon is pretty low down on my list of niggles. Is an AK47 in a Normandy game any more anachronistic than an STG44 in a Dunkirk game? They're both three or four years before their time, right?

There are lots of things that I have to suspend my disbelief about at CiA games. Rifle squads comprised of 3 officers, 5 NCOs and 1 EM all of whom are toting Thompsons is a big one . Chunky goggles and face masks is another. At the end of the day it's only a game and we're all just pretending so I have no problem getting past all that and still have a great immersive experience.

It seems that this is already a done deal so I'll step away from any further discussion on this topic.

Is an AK47 in a Normandy game any more anachronistic than an STG44 in a Dunkirk game? .... Rifle squads comprised of 3 officers, 5 NCOs and 1 EM all of whom are toting Thompsons is a big one

Yes, we are of like minds - check out the kit requirements for Op Ariel.

While so much more is possible these days there are still compromises to be made but I suppose one has to make a value judgement and make a choice - nothing matters or everything matters?
Sure its just a game - we could say 'wear what you like and oh, let's have the Americans attack Caen 'cos we aren't bothered' but that really isn't what CiA is about and never has been. We hope its more than blatting in silly costumes - a chunk of history, a chunk of realism, a bit of sweating whether in fear or exertion, oh and a bit of fun too (for the organisers as well as the players).

Here's a question (and why not vote in my poll): what did you think when you heard there was such a thing as WW2 airsoft? Was it just something that seemed fairly interesting, something different from the norm, something you might check out, something you might try depending on the cost / effort required? For me it was like a dream come true - and something that I was going to do no matter how long it took - and at that stage, the first game had not even happened, and I didn't know anybody on here. I would guess that a large majority of us who attend games would fall into that category, as opposed to, "well, sounds interesting, might check it out".

We all know that airsoft is a money drain, no matter what - I was amazed at how much money my friends spent on it, upgrading guns, buying this scope, that RIS rail, this grenade launcher, that support weapon, this genuine camo BD, that genuine molle pouch system, etc, etc.

How much would a tightening of the look-a-like system really put off those who want to do WW2 airsoft? If you invite a friend to their first event, you know that there will always be people in the CiA community willing to lend kit and guns.

This is just the natural progression of people who are really into WW2 airsoft - how can CiA be hypocritical and say there's a loose look-a-like system, but then say, "ah, but for our Dunkirk event, no AK47s, no German camo, no Stg44s, no Denison smocks, etc, etc". It doesn't work, does it? Those of us attending CiA events are wanting an evermore realistic experience, and - importantly - are making ever increasing efforts on our kit: just look at the kit threads for Operation Aerial - it's a credit to you all.

And as CW says - it's only 4 games a year. If you don't think there are enough games with loose kit requirements, then go and organise one - I did.

@CW: Well everyone likes a compliment now and then haha Anyway that wasn't my intent it was just to identify that I'm just glad CiA are around or I never would've got in to Airsofting.

The problem with an AK is that it is so iconic. I screams "postwar rebel fighter" at you when you see it. Well it does once you are able to recognise one.

It was at the start a great way to get people in as it did at least look in passing a bit like an MP44. But the MP44 is a gun that's not appropriate for all WW2 games either... lol.

If it wasn't so iconic or perhaps was made-up like some of Joker's recent "period" weapons then that wouldn't be so much of a problem. When you saw it, it wouldn't scream "anachronism" at you.

It's like seeing a digital watch on a Wehrmacht soldier. If you didn't know what a digital watch was it wouldn't stand out so much.

And a T-shirt with Iron Maiden on it is also something that's iconic...

Anyway... if you check the website, you'll see that this change has already happened, but only for CiA games. Everyone else can do what the hell they like, but then they always could! These are only guidelines and it's down to each game organiser to set the level they want to run it at.

If you don't think there are enough games with loose kit requirements, then go and organise one - I did.

When's the next one?

Yeah I'd go, Haggard was great!

I still haven't recovered mentally from the last one!

Needs more than 2 to organise one of that size, really.

I can't argue with that... Grab some more people to help!

Indeed it was an awesome site.

You should set up a southern coalition to run some more games.

I think four or five is a good number of organisers to share workload without having too many ideas to dilute strong concepts.

well, at ariel, i will (hopefully) be using my no4, because it looks a bit like a SMLE....................

Certainly a need for balance Chef and we aren't anywhere near 'perfection' levels yet (if indeed we ever shall be or indeed if there is such a thing). And the game will always be full of incongruity and compromise.

And you are right about building up kit levels - that's why chaps advise time after time (largely to deaf ears) that if you want to get into WW2 buy basic, cheap, generic, authentic kit and build on that slowly. Its taken me years to get anywhere near complete and authentic clobber! If fact the worst thing you can possibly do is go to SoF before your very first game and spend £750+ on uniform, accessories and rifle. Because that would miss the fundamental of WW2 airsoft - its not about who has spent the most money, its about getting into the period, living in a fantasy world of film or childhood games and getting a feel of what is might have been like fighting 70 years ago. Without the getting dead bit.

and we like that...

And put off people like me who came here for the lack of stitch-counters...

To be honest, would you have turned up in a boilersuit, toting an MP5? I seriously doubt it.

Boilersuit; no - I have a Denny and denims (wool allergy).
MP5; yes, because I have one and it's currently illegal for me to buy anything else... And that's the issue.

It just prevents you from attending a CiA game, not playing WW2 airsoft - plenty of places at Gulch at the end of May, Gunman games are closer to you, both these will hire you guns anyway.

Every hobby requires some level of commitment - whether its time or money. Its not impossible to buy one, just requires some effort and a little expense (don't blame us, blame your government). Since you are over 18 and have never been to an airsoft game then now is the time to do something about it - have a trip three times over the next few months to your local site and get your UKARA sorted (and flog that MP5 while you are at it - no idea why you have that if you have never played airsoft but want to do WW2!). I ALWAYS recommend chaps to try regular airsoft first anyway - that way you have something to contrast to and appreciate the WW2 style better (or hate it). Incidentally, it is illegal for you to make realistic looking weapons too unless you have an exemption or dispensation under the VCRA - another incentive to get that UKARA!

Some good points there Chef, but there is one thing that I take issue with. Two tones. Personally, I don't want to see ANY two tones at a WW2 game (i'm speaking from my own view of WW2 Airsoft - what other event operators do is up to them!) Elitist? Not really. I just like my "suspension of disbelief", and i'm sure that most WW2'ers would agree.

Now, onto the looks-like system. Mixed views really. I'm a believer in "variety is the spice of life" when it comes to events, whether it be on clothing requirements (nice to do some early war stuff for a change!) or gun requirements (again, early war stuff, so no MP44's) We're not saying that we're going to get shot of the looks-like list in its entirety, what we're saying is that for some events it will probably be tightened up.

It's evolution ladies and gents!

And I have to put this because its a bugbear of mine. UKARA registration is not the be all and end all for obtaining RIF's.

Of course, but its the easiest way of obtaining kit for a newcomer though (and is shorthand to explain to newcomers how to buy guns AND it gets them to actually play airsoft for the first time - why do people but all the kit without ever having played the game?)

So by saying that this doesn't stop you attending a WW2 event, but it does stop you attending a CIA event, is that not being a little bit Elitist and somewhat akin to stitch nazism? And that point alone I think is fundamentally against the nature of the people in CIA.

Well, that is for others to decide but clearly we don't think so, its about making the effort to look the part, as far as you are able. I suppose what we are saying is that CiA as game organisers have done our bit in encouraging people to try WW2 airsoft for the last three years. Now there is plenty of choice of games and game organisers (KGB being one of them!) and since we are only running small events it makes it possible to to have an event that is not only an accurate scenario but accurate in content too (given the compromises you outline). Frankly, gameplay matters more to us than accurate kit - hence our decision to restrict numbers (much more fun to organise, more fun to play, less opportunity for players to break the no 1 CiA rule) but saying that it does look stupid with full sides of No4s & Stens, Thompsons and MP40s to have one bod with an MP5!

For me, the Ambience of the events is more important than the detail. The fact that people put a great deal of effort into looking the part with the right kit gives that level of detail without enforcing it, and that just further enhances the ambience.

Taking that logically then, the better the level of kit, the greater the ambience! Heh, I know what you mean, only teasing. Everyone has their own take on it though - you hate hicaps, I'm not bothered at all. I'm not that fussed about what other players wear on their feet since you rarely see them and yet I personally wear period footwear 'cos it makes me feel the part.

I agree Kermit, don't get me wrong, I'd rather eat the peanuts out of my sh!t than see a two-tone....

Ah, you made me laugh out loud.
See, that's the best bit about this forum - chaps can debate politely and with humour and without falling out or being snide or throwing a strop.

Excellent, there you are you see? You have yet to go to a WW2 game yet you have already set the standards for yourself and made a value judgement on what are and aren't acceptable looks-like guns for others.

One way or another, whether by crafty purchase or borrowing/hiring kit it is perfectly possible to put together a reasonable level of kit. This is the thing with WW2, everyone makes the effort. However, the standard of kit required for CiA (or PBI come to that) games falls well short of reenacting 'standards' I can assure you! Take a look at the required kit standard for Die Glocke or Op Ariel - very general, non-specific and NOT expensive (although airsoft can never be regarded as a cheap hobby!).

However, fast forward three years when you have accumulated a house full of kit (and you will!) you may just yearn for a WW2 battle where everyone looks and acts that bit more like it was 70 years ago so it would be nice to think there is an event available that fulfils your desires. That is where CiA games are now. Small, tightly focussed battles where, bizarrely enough, players don't obsess about kit - its taken for granted - but are looking for something a bit more intense, a bit more rich in content and a bit more realistic. For those that don't want that then I am pleased to say there is plenty of choice - from player-run games who give up spare time for free all the way to commercially run games where 120 players and looks-like uniform and gun hire is the norm.