The merits and demerits of full face masks - a debate

I got them as a second pair from Specsavers. Otherwise no more than about £50.

Now here's the thing. We've run events in tunnels, around dilapidated buildings, in old factories, on 2000 acre 'rough-as-fuck' forestry commission sites and on grassy hills. We've had moving vehicles, rocket launchers, mortars and large explosives. We've run games in 30c searing heat and -10c freezing cold. We've played at night and during the day.

And, after all that, the *one* thing that's caused me serious, permanent damage?

A fecking British '37 pattern water bottle that broke two ribs.

I say we ban them, and make everyone carry hydration packs.

Now I can't add much to this debate as I'm 16 and therefore have to wear a full face mask( most events only allow over 18's not to wear them) , a good method of still allowing the suspension of disbelief within the game is one of the 'fleshy face' face masks that can be painted to look like real. Someone else posted a better painted face mask attempt than mine earlier in the thread, but these pictures I think show that the a little bit of paint and effort with one of those masks does pass muster for a face for a quick glance- If I was wearing shooting specs the effect would be even better.

I really quite like that, it's a shame they do not come off the shelf like it or look quite so morose. Not perfect, as it would make being heard difficult and from my experience of using a sensei lower plastic mask a few years back, they would cause fogging due to heat retention (i drilled extra 3mm holes all over mine to increase airflow, not really ideal here). I'd also cut the cheeks a bit higher. Still, a nice challenge and definitely something I will look into in the future.

(On a side not I’ve recently swapped to the Revision antifog wipes as I've found they are even more effective than the ESS ones.)

In terms of moving over to less visible facepro in general for newer players, that's quite true. I picked up a pair of Revision Sawfly glasses just before The Drop back in march, but unfortunately, just like the ESS Ice, they sat dangerously on my face. I swapped back to the rather pronounced ESS v12's for the event. I've since picked up a pair of Revision Exoshields, which is as close to glasses as goggles can get.

Seemed perfect but they can't be used on very hot days as apparently no one at Revision realised using glue that reacts to sweat was a bad idea :/

So one organiser chooses to exclude the full face mask at his event, an event aimed at like minded particpants in his hobby. This should not cause anyone a major issue. His target audience is not the full facemask wearing player. If it drives players away from the event and it has to be cancelled the organiser might have to rethink, or maybe he just won't organise any more, but I don't foresee that in this case. Some players are more likely to attend.

Over the years I have chosen not to do loads of things because they didn't suit my criteria of an enjoyable/ safe/ desirable experience (attending an S-Club 7 concert, abseiling, taking heroin, eating beetroot, watching ITV). There have been many brilliant ww2 themed airsoft events where facemasks were present, I have been to them, I expect there will be more and I will probably go to some of those. Those who feel the need can attend those events, I might even see you there (though I won't recognise you. ) The sight of your facemask will probably mean I think of the event as less good because they irritate the bejaysus out of me, even if all other aspects of the event are excellent and that is unfortunate so I am glad that there is at least one event where I won't see them. Their diminished presence in our hobby would be a good thing. It's my impression that full facemasks have actually crept in to WW2 airsoft over the last few years. This is wholly anecdotal so I cannot claim any statistical veracity (does that make it my two cents worth? ) but I am sure that when CiA started all this back in 2007 they were a pretty rare sight.

To address the topic directly, and as someone who has has had his beautiful looks ruined by a very hot Tanaka K98 round in the schnoz at well below minimum enagagement range, I do not see the merits of them in WW2 airsoft. They look as bad as any glaringly obvious modern kit, much more jarring than the wrong ww2 gun, modern boots under leggings, a US para with no steel pot or the wrong shade of blanco. They just scream "I do not care about the "WW2" part of WW2 airsoft."

It's my impression that full facemasks have actually crept in to WW2 airsoft over the last few years. This is wholly anecdotal so I cannot claim any statistical veracity (does that make it my two cents worth? ) but I am sure that when CiA started all this back in 2007 they were a pretty rare sight.

Yes mate I would say the same, I don't get to many now.
Having said that my last 2 events were a lot of CQB so I put it down to that, if it has crept into woodland than that is pushing things a bit far.

I was at the game at Close Action with the CIA guys just before they created CIA and hardly any masks were in play if any, a few M4's and AK but no masks.

I suppose I would also feel like Waladek if I had seen this creep strongly into Woodland events.

If the lads under 18 can have a good go at some sort of real face look mask please do as I think many of you fit in quite well at the games I have seen you at. I full well know given the choice you don't want to wear them but it is site rules some times.

To start with I'd like to say that I don't like to see black plastic face masks at WW2 events. It has to be said, Darth Vader masks of any description spoil the period look. However with a little time and effort and at only a small expense face masks can be adapted to fit in with the WW2 impression.

I would like to congratulate Aurther. The pictures of his mask on page 1 of this thread show what can be achieved with a little time and effort. The mask looks superb. I also know for a fact that from a distance of 10 feet or more no one would be able to tell that they were in fact looking at a man wearing a mask. When you then consider the actual ranges that we engage at and also the fact that it is usually in woodland, I think anyone claiming that this sort of mask " spoils their immersion" is in fact being extremely pedantic. In addition I also think such comments would be an insult to Aurther's artistry and disrespectful of the time and effort he has obviously put in to creating his WW2 impression.

I myself use a mask very similar to this and know from experience that other players don't even realise I'm wearing a mask until they are standing right next to me. Often some still do not realise it's a mask until I speak to them and the lips don't move. As for anyone that claims this sort of mask upsets them because they think it's "weird" and "creepy", Well! They really ought to see a good psychiatrist. Whilst they are discussing their fear of masks, balloons, clowns, spiders and anything else that alarms them - they should probably try to sort out their bed wetting at the same time.

As for comments such as "man up and take the hits" , well that's just childish. As El Sparko says in his post, for some people it is not acceptable to turn up at work with marks on their face. Alternatively as cdfw says in his post " If you have ever forked out £500 for a cap, crown or veneer and spent hours in the dentists chair, please don't ever think it won't happen to you.. It does and it really changes your perspective on how it may ruin the realistic feeling of your hobby." I think that sooner or later it will happen to some of the people in the pro ban - sorry " pro discourage" camp and they will reappraise their perspective. Unfortunately that will be too late to affect this debate. I myself have tried gum shields. I found them to be adequate as far as protection is concerned but I do find them to be messy and potentially unhygienic on a long days re enacting / skirmishing. In addition they certainly do stop people understanding what you are saying. I have found with my mask that I am easily understood by one and all. Simply talk louder than you normally would.

So many little things annoy so many people. As I said right at the top, I myself am not keen on the black plastic airsoft masks and would encourage people who wear them to change to the flesh masks. For me though 100% immersion is already spoiled by the goggles. Everyone wears them and to me they are far more noticeable from a distance than the flesh masks but they are necessary and so we ignore them. Goggles along with scarves wrapped around faces for protection and load outs that are not accurate all these things can bite at you if you let them. As a group we should endeavour to improve on all aspects of our hobby and there are many ways to do this. I for one believe that help and encouragement is preferable to banning, sorry "discouraging". people that haven't got it quite right yet.

With regard to the overall idea of banning sorry "discouraging" people that don't fit in with your image of the perfect WW2 airsofter, I think this is elitist, insular and somewhat dangerous. There is a dark undertone here that concerns me. To any members of this forum who have read this thread and not bothered to get involved because they don't think that it affects them I say be warned! It's never very healthy whenever a small pressure group gets into a position to dictate to the majority. I say small, 18 votes at the time of writing this. What then if face masks are banned sorry "discouraged" ? We lose a few individuals from the WW2 airsoft scene. So what? Who cares? . . . . But! What or who is next? How about the ladies? You didn't see many women fighting in front line battalions during WW2. Perhaps seeing them today may spoil someone's immersion in the period. Also they are a minority so should be easy to ban, sorry "discourage". What then? How about the lardies? You certainly didn't see many 22 stone tubbies storming the Normandy beaches. Perhaps someone's immersion in the period will be ruined by the sight of a big lad bounding by. So we ban, sorry "discourage" face masks, ladies, lardies, who's next? . . . Got it! the 40 and 50 year olds. Not many of them on the front lines. I could go on but I won't.

Ok that's my ten bob's worth. No doubt someone will cut and paste bits of this and attack me with a passion. I'm more concerned about hearing my windows being smashed in the early hours of the morning, only to look out and see a mob of torch bearing thugs singing party songs as they stand around a bonfire of books. Oh! they're not books, they're face masks.

"Turned out nice again".

A very well written piece Cheeky Chappy, I concure with many of your points

Well done Cheeky Chappy Nice portion of Sense

No doubt someone will cut and paste bits of this and attack me with a passion. I'm more concerned about hearing my windows being smashed in the early hours of the morning, only to look out and see a mob of torch bearing thugs singing party songs as they stand around a bonfire of books. Oh! they're not books, they're face masks.

Heh, thought I'd cut and paste for the hell of it.

But I will say, for last time, this is a DEBATE. Nothing to do with dictating or imposing anything or personally attacking or mob rule. I put a clear proposition, and a cogent argument to support it, and invited others to contribute. If forum users don't understand what a debate is then that is a pity! I really don't understand why some are convincing themselves that 'rights' are being removed or blanket rules imposed - they aren't.

I note that the most indignant are people who have yet to attend a game and those who are most cool with the idea are those who have attended and do attend WW2 games. And that most comments have been concentrating on the looks but completely bypassed the less obvious and more thought provoking of Craig's concerns about attendant attitudes.

Ok and now for the cut and paste

I think anyone claiming that this sort of mask " spoils their immersion" is in fact being extremely pedantic. In addition I also think such comments would be an insult to Aurther's artistry and disrespectful of the time and effort he has obviously put in to creating his WW2 impression.

So you're saying that I'm not entitled to my opinion and using rhetorical statements to make it look like anyone who disagrees with you is automatically being disrespectful of Arthur.

As for anyone that claims this sort of mask upsets them because they think it's "weird" and "creepy", Well! They really ought to see a good psychiatrist. Whilst they are discussing their fear of masks, balloons, clowns, spiders and anything else that alarms them - they should probably try to sort out their bed wetting at the same time.

This ranks along side the "man up and take the hits" which you have characterised as childish.

some of the people in the pro ban - sorry " pro discourage" camp

overall idea of banning sorry "discouraging" people

What then if face masks are banned sorry "discouraged"

These statements are designed to perpetuate a untruth to allow you to 'have a go' at people exercising their right to express their dislike of full face masks, which somehow has been twisted in to a pro-ban group??????

No one at anytime has suggested a total ban on full face masks, for starters who exactly is going to impose this mythical ban? there is no central controlling authority, each event is run according to the rules laid down by the organiser of that event, in the case of those events that cater for under 18s these will automatically allow full face masks as they are a insurance requirement for the under 18s, and I strongly doubt that many other organisers will impose such a ban as it can be a struggle to get enough people to sign up to make an event viable.

So lets look at the truth, one organiser has said that for his upcoming event he doesn't want people to wear full face masks, a number of other people have, as is their right, expressed their dislike of full face masks; end of story.

Final comment with regard to the idea that sustaining injury will have a marked effect on the attitudes of those who dislike full face masks, I'm afraid that you're simply wrong, I know people who have lost teeth, had bbs buried in their face, to the point of having to go to hospital to get them removed, and they continued wearing goggles, for myself I've been shot in the face the ears the neck, and had blood drawn on a number of occasions and I still wear glasses rather than a mask, equally on that premise I would have stopped riding motorbikes 34 years ago when I shattered my left elbow and right knee cap, or possibely two years later when I came off wearing an open face helmet and broke off my two top front teeth, one of which punched through my top lip, but no all those years and a number of accidents later I'm still on two wheels when I can. Finally someone said something along the lines that we wouldn't compromise our safety by riding a motorbike without a helmet, well yes I have and yes I would again if I thought I could get away with it without getting nicked.

Last Saturday , i had one of my front teeth shot out.
ive not worn a face mask for the last 5 years,
this was a risk i took and was my choice and my fault,
whilst i don't like facemasks, i do respect peoples choice in using them.

and as for a big dentist bill, fook that, i caught the 3/4 of tootht hat i spat out, and im going to araldite the bugger back in
90 second rapid set, it can hold 300PSI gas in my UZI magazine, it should hold in a tooth
ill post before and after pics, see how they come out

Last Saturday , i had one of my front teeth shot out.

Well done that man, can't wait to see the pics. Were you airsofting or were you on stage as part of a magic act?

A grade 'A' slice of sense and reason

Great post which outlined my views and I'm sure many others within the community who chose not to wade into this perfectly

twas airsofting, i lost 3/4 of the tooth i should point out, not the whole tooth, and thats the tooth the whole tooth and nothing but the tooth

I'd just like to point out some rather uncouth argumentative techniques that Cheeky Chappy has used:

I think anyone claiming that this sort of mask " spoils their immersion" is in fact being extremely pedantic.....

....I myself use a mask very similar to this and know from experience that other players don't even realise I'm wearing a mask until they are standing right next to me. Often some still do not realise it's a mask until I speak to them and the lips don't move. As for anyone that claims this sort of mask upsets them because they think it's "weird" and "creepy", Well! They really ought to see a good psychiatrist. Whilst they are discussing their fear of masks, balloons, clowns, spiders and anything else that alarms them - they should probably try to sort out their bed wetting at the same time.

Ad hominems. If you can't think of anything else, try to discredit the opposition by insult.

With regard to the overall idea of banning sorry "discouraging" people that don't fit in with your image of the perfect WW2 airsofter, I think this is elitist, insular and somewhat dangerous.

The Straw Man. Argue something other than what is being proposed, or try to conflate it. No one is proposing a ban, they're proposing a choice of event types. If you think this is elitist, then don't go!

There is a dark undertone here that concerns me. To any members of this forum who have read this thread and not bothered to get involved because they don't think that it affects them I say be warned! It's never very healthy whenever a small pressure group gets into a position to dictate to the majority. I say small, 18 votes at the time of writing this. What then if face masks are banned sorry "discouraged" ? We lose a few individuals from the WW2 airsoft scene. So what? Who cares? . . . . But! What or who is next? How about the ladies? You didn't see many women fighting in front line battalions during WW2. Perhaps seeing them today may spoil someone's immersion in the period. Also they are a minority so should be easy to ban, sorry "discourage". What then? How about the lardies? You certainly didn't see many 22 stone tubbies storming the Normandy beaches. Perhaps someone's immersion in the period will be ruined by the sight of a big lad bounding by. So we ban, sorry "discourage" face masks, ladies, lardies, who's next? . . . Got it! the 40 and 50 year olds. Not many of them on the front lines. I could go on but I won't.

Ah, the good old slippery slope fallacy. Trotted out by many detractors to try and shut down debate. Totally irrelevant. We're only discussing face masks here.

No doubt someone will cut and paste bits of this and attack me with a passion.

The pre-emptive ad hom strike. Discredit the responder to the argument by making them sound shrill and unreasonable when they reply, regardless of what they say or how they say it.

I'm more concerned about hearing my windows being smashed in the early hours of the morning, only to look out and see a mob of torch bearing thugs singing party songs as they stand around a bonfire of books. Oh! they're not books, they're face masks.

Godwin! (Even though you don't mention Hitler or the Nazis, you're implying this as much as possible.) This technically means you've lost the argument by the way.

You make some good points in your post, but in future please try and do it in a more productive and argumentatively valid way.

well i have never worn a full face mask never liked them
when i'm doing WW2 airsoft i take the risk not wearing one for the fact i play with
regular players here i have no need to wear one

when i'm doing some modern airsoft then thats where i have my face cover not full face mask (vader type ones )
all i wear is a balacaver thats it, too many ramboers on modern airsoft

Damn! You got there before me Steve.

You are spot on though, that argument was dreadful. The use of the 'first they came for the...' analogy had me in giggles before bedtime (angry giggles)

Once you cut out all the above form the argument, what is left? Exactly the same as before - peoples choice, some masks do not stand out, cost of dental work.

These are all points which I think have been resoundingly rebuffed?

it would be useful to see peoples relative views on the choice between the full face vader masks and a well painted flesh style lower face mask.
my view is that while I don't wear a mask at all or gum guard and find the vader masks to be completely out of place in ww2 airsoft i am happy for people to use a well painted flesh and blood style lower face mask provided it is distinct from other masks and i can tell who is who.
further i would like to point out that some of the most aggravated arguments against masks come from people who organise games and it is entirely their prerogative to set the rules for those games,if others don't agree then i humbly suggest they put the work in and organise games more to their taste.

Because we have only just realised we are, well, allowed to.

It was commonly thought that we had no option when it came to face masks, that we had to allow them because that is what is done in airsoft - that they were part of the hobby - and that we were bound by site rules enforcing us to allow them.

The problem with just going and organising games to our taste is that people need to go to them. There are quite simply costs that must be met before we even start on the functional requirements of numbers to play the game. If we still want to be able to run - and attend - games of our liking we will have to change some people's minds - whether players, or other organisers.

It is through debate and conversation that we realise that we can organise games without them. There is not an over-ruling body of organisers who ask questions of the community, we are the community as well, this is how we speak .