Following on from Jons post what makes a ww2 combat game a milsim.
Is it entirely period kit... would carrying camel back s stop it being 'realistic'
Is it accurate forces and mission or would the desert rats fighting the kreigsmarine be ok?
Is it a chain of command and squad structure, do you have to act like a military unit or can you 'lone wolf' (which no one did in the 40s outside of SOE OSS and the SAS etc)
Is it ammo and medic rules...
What would you look for in a wwii milsim event?
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
This is going to be a very interesting poll... I know for sure that the word "milsim" means different things to different people.
Hence the many options.
I want to know if folk dont mind any scenario as long as they are loaded out wiht entirely accurate kit or of they want a realsitic scenario with laxer kit or all of it.
I'm keeping my personal opinion out of it for now so as not to colour the poll.
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
Well I voted... so not the same here... hehe 
crikey, there's almost a consensus as yet. 
I voted for both kit and scenario, but I would put the scenario first certainly.
Also when you mention accurate kit are we talking about 'Boiler suits/Denims the degrees of counts as' kit or about modern waterproof socks?
If you know what I mean? My answer is still scenario being more important but thought I'd ask.
I think i mean accurate as in nothing modern at all.
Its hard to get the feel of what it was like for a guy sweating in serge in the nornamdy hedgerows under fire if you're wearing and under armour cooling shirt and sipping froma camel back... i think water proof socks comes into the modern comforts category.
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
Waht makes a milsim ....it's whats in the peoples heads . Think act and live it , the number of rounds, what you are wearing , what you carry will make little difference if that is not there .
Just my often spouted opinion .
Personally, although i enjoy 'accurate' events with milsim elements, such as correct kit, units, tactics, chain of command etc, and trying to get into the 'mindset' of the ww2 soldier, I've very little interest in digging foxholes with my teeth and then attempting to sleep in them overnight, or staying up all night and playing as a zombie for several hours the next day.
As far as i'm concerned, staying overnight away from home and not being in a 4+ star hotel is 'roughing it'. Camping is an unfortunate necessity for ww2 games due to the distances involved, so has to be endured, and made the best of via the medium of alcohol. I'd rather not make my airsofting experience any more uncomfortable for the sake of it.
So for the sake of argument then.
If i have a five aside skirmish wearing a mix of kit form 1900 to 2009 where we blat of hundreds of rounds at each other for no real reason but *inside* we're all really feeling its d-day then thats a milsim?
Just taking it to the extreme as an example...
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
for me , its not just the mindset, its the whole period thing..... it never fails to amaze me that guys will spend 250 quid on good ww2 uniforms, then wear a modern assualt vest/molle webbing carrier with it. why bother. i like the total immersion, even down to the right socks, i know a lot of lads in the PBI carry period washing/shaving kit during an airsoft skirmish....
Righty ho. Devils advocate time.
Milisim, not really my bag. don't like the idea of all nighters, do like the idea of correct kit. funny, but we've had this before. A certain megadeth Tshirt at a certain game. Now that knackers the whole idea. I feel that you can get the same experence without having to sleep and I use that word in its broadest possible sense, in a hole.(except when pissed and then I favour rose bushes, long story)
What makes milisim, a good senario, accurate kit, decent location in keeping with senario, a complete absence of the blat fest. trying to keep it a period as is possible. This as opposed to endurance airsoft, which many think is the vital part of milisim.
As much as I hate the vile monster that is health and safety, no sleep, limited food and long drives + all the frantic activity= accident waiting to happen. Now I know that is a bit of a piss poor arguement, because in reality most weekender games are no sleep, limited food, unlimited piss up + all the frantic activity= a bloody good weekend. 
But I am of the oppnion that what Is already occuring and especially with PBI, though I've not been to a game, as yet, is Milisim.
Its the whole, hole thing which puts me off. of course a way around it is a senario, which runs late into the night, but ends with people returning to a preset camp zone or two.
As I said its a weak arguement, and one I'm really not going to try defend.
i think also, one thing that really doesn't work well, is seperating the sides into different camp sites.
It certainly didn't at Churchill's, at least, and i don't think it's been tried since, with good reason.
no arguments from me pat... i think the last time this was raised, myself, forrester and a couple of other former soldiers all agreed that we had done our time sleeping in trenches and shell scrapes stagging on and off. authenticaty even down to cooking in the field yes,,,, sleeping(possibly) in possitions,,, nah. if the young bucks want to do that while i come back to a harbour area for a piss up thats fine....
i think also, one thing that really doesn't work well, is seperating the sides into different camp sites.
It certainly didn't at Churchill's, at least, and i don't think it's been tried since, with good reason.
Tried at D-Day too with similar undesirable results.
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
no arguments from me pat... i think the last time this was raised, myself, forrester and a couple of other former soldiers all agreed that we had done our time sleeping in trenches and shell scrapes stagging on and off. authenticaty even down to cooking in the field yes,,,, sleeping(possibly) in possitions,,, nah. if the young bucks want to do that while i come back to a harbour area for a piss up thats fine....
I always wonder how you can have sleeping in positions in airsoft as you only have to fall asleep and nudge your eye protection off and you're looking at a potential serious accident.
The only way around it is to have harbour areas 'made safe' with netting or which cant be attacked which sort of defeats the point of having a stag...
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
The sleeping thing would be amusing if there were German guards,(or any guards really, they are just Germans in my mind) and a 'barracks/room' where they could sleep 'in game' - Or any such structure where people take their turns trying to sleep/typing fake reports on a typewriter 
, but I agree about the foxholes and such. Though surely sleeping in goggles would be hazardous as they may fall off and then there could be trouble no?
EDIT - Gadge beat me to that last query.
And I also agree with Impy about the naffness of 'endurance airsoft', which is another phrase to add to my list of phrases I like.
Yeah i like the phrase endurance airsoft.. and i'm of a similar opinion 
Having done week long exercises with little to no sleep and being paid for it, like Scaley and Heide... i'm not mad on doing it for fun & i have the get out clause that i'm a bit crippled in the back dept!
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
For me its all, although its Pick and Mix! I think the camping and long duration can be dropped and a decent Milsim day can be had (IED day games being a prime example). The rest, I think, are compulsary!
As to night fighting - it doesn't work, no one has the kit (NV for modern, flares for WW2) to make it happen, plus there is the potential hazard of drivers falling asleep as mentioned (although staying up most of the night getting shit faced has the same results). I think having a definite End Ex time for guns down and a definite Site Live time for the following morning makes sense. It still requires camping in the field, it still requires some stagging during dark, and it still requires being stood to ready for a dawn attack, but it does allow some sleep. Those who don't want to sleep in a rabbit hole, could always slope off to the safe zone, but a sensible way of getting them back in the game is needed. I've slept in eye protection on numerous occasions and never had any issues, but if the down time was enforced properly there would be no need.
I personally like weekend Milsim games, but not all the time - maybe 3 or 4 times a year. I'd be happy if the rest of my games (modern and WW2) being day Milsim.
Jon Steele
1st Sgt, Fox Company, 506th, 101st
OC
Again for the sake of the discussion
If you have a 'guns down' time does that conclude offensive operations?
Or can you still go on recce, intel raids and prisoners snatches with rubber knives?
If it ends all movement then whats the point of stagging on?
Yith and I discussed this at length and came to the conclusion very few folk were prepaered to part with £30 + to effectively guard a AA missile that never gets attacked for two days. He recalls being the only guy left guarding an installation when the other wandered off bored.
(i may have this wrong, im sure yith will correct me)
Personally i think if you were to do a 24 hour event then the best compromise woudl be to allow sides to send out recce patrols to map out positions (with no weapons) , if challenged they must withdraw (hence a need for counter patrols and stags). In th emorning any credible intel presented to the orgnaisers might allow extra mortar fire missions or the deployment of a squad behind lines.
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
Yith and I discussed this at length and came to the conclusion very few folk were prepaered to part with £30 + to effectively guard a AA missile that never gets attacked for two days. He recalls being the only guy left guarding an installation when the other wandered off bored.
Shame, I wouldn't mind it so much. Especially if there was someone else to talk to. Then again I am weird and would happily play a game set a GHQ where all you do is drink tea and look at maps.
