what next?

For what it's worth my idea would be;
For our community to organise ourselves so that games organisers took turns to put on an event. So say AGS were hosting a game in September, the rest of us would all support this by attending ourselves and recruiting extra bodies if possible/necessary. Then say the 34th guys hosted in March, Pathfinders in September etc etc. This would prevent competition resulting in some games succeeding an others failing. This will take along of communication and a willingness to support each other, not compete. Organisers may need to show great tolerance and compromise when supporting other people's games but the reward of reciprocated support the prize. By this the organisers can retain their sense of individual identity but with the security of a supportive community behind them. The principles of immersive gaming will underpin all games but each one will bring some diversity and novelty due to the individuals involved. Hopefully by taking this approach we will avoid the need to decide between games and as they become established and successful, more will come and the amount of games thAt can be supported increase.
There's other logistical things to consider such as locations but perhaps we take one step at a time.

There's other logistical things to consider such as locations but perhaps we take one step at a time.

There has always been a poll at the top of the new players introduction section but the last one to actually put up on it was over a year ago.
Someone will probably put me right but has Hänschen klein produced a map for the southern end of the country for help with AGS game planning? Maybe this can be taken up by someone and we can enhance it to the players with registered interest. But everyone must be aware that although a greater percentage of players may be in one area that not all the games will be in that area everyone will have to put the effort into travel and support all the games not the just the one that are easy for them. This I believe is a core ideal that Johnny is trying to identify.

And Johnny, no your not the messiah......................................( insert Monty Python script here!)

I do have a map of players pinned to it. It has not been updated for a while since our 2 games went belly up but they are players who will actually attend events. I didn`t bother with the kit collectors and Know all moaners who went to one event 4 years ago

If someone wants to make use of it PM me.

I am all for driving the hobby forward not knocking it

What next yes that is the most important question and probably the one with the least replies so far.

If this started as a result of the frustration of mission Albany being cancelled and by the forum name "Immersive WW2 game discussion group" I am assuming that the desire of most people is to ensure that games that are more immersive than your average game (unfortunately very hard to define) continue to be run and receive the necessary support to make them viable?

There was a suggestion at one stage that could be achieved by organising from the bottom up our own game, but I tend to agree with CW that there are already enough games just not enough people attending the more immersive games. Now I am not being negative or threatning to take my ball home by saying that Johnny I just think that is correct. If this went down the road of organising our own gaming experience I would do all I can to support it AND atttend (money/dates permitting) as I would like to think I try to support all game organisers.

So If this is no longer the Plan how do we support game organiser who wish to put these games on? Well the obvious and somewhat flippant answer is to attend as many of these games as we can when they come up. But perhaps we also need to encourage players who normally only attend more mainstream events to come along and give them a try (Networking - yes horrid word).

Perhaps games can also support eachother when they are in trouble rather than be in competion, So for example both Albany and Messina were struggling to get numbers. Would it have helped if Organisers and some of their players went to the other event in an effort to bolster numbers for both games? Now I know thats not always possible because of other commitments but at least everyone who was attending either game would have had the opportunity to play in the game they wanted but also at another. OK the other game may not have been entirely their cup of tea but both might have run. Idealistic/foolish of me to think this ...possibly.

Perhaps it is also necessary to look at why these games did not get the support they needed, Was it location, timing, game plan etc, but again this is difficult to do in an honest way and as has been mentioned Some very succesful game organisers who have had well attended games have also had to cancell some of theirs.

Personally I would like to see this group as a way of supporting games and helping to ensure they are well attended but even then it raises the question do you only support immersive games and if so what are they, perhaps the squirrels are creeping back in

To be honest Johnny I am not sure how this should progress but I like your positive attidude and it has clearly inspired many to sign up, so lets debate and brainstorm

Perhaps it is also necessary to look at why these games did not get the support they needed, Was it location, timing, game plan etc, but again this is difficult to do in an honest way and as has been mentioned Some very succesful game organisers who have had well attended games have also had to cancell some of theirs.

Having been involved in problem solving for many years what Tim says is the underlying factor of why games are failing.

1st up you have to identify the problem, not what you think the problem is you have to find out what Actually is the problem.

I have seen from previous games which have failed the same mistakes being made again and you guessed it the game failed again. One of the fundamental mistakes being made is that organisers are putting on games which they want (and I fully respect that being an organiser, why would you want to put on a game, all the effort which you wouldn`t enjoy, apart from Gunman who is doing it for a living should be feeding the masses against any thoughts of what you want) Give the people what they want no matter how you look at it they are customers and they vote with their feet! If organisers want to put on every one dressed as Bund Deutsche Maedels doing charity work only armed with a sowing kit and a bunch of flowers and if they have enough like minded players to put the game on I respect that fully but they cannot moan if no one takes them up on the opportunity to put their hair in pig tails!

It has been banded about that there are too many games on in the year. I feel that it is not the case. Problem solving rule 1 applies if the games are what people want to attend they will attend. I have personal experience of this when I set a game up in 2012 in May on the South coast and it was subjected to mumers that it was too near to odd balls game in Liverpool 2 weeks later. Guess what both games went ahead got supported because of location of events price Type of scenario and uniform and rule requirements. Oddball wrote to me and said that people from the North would not travel to my game and be taken away from his and I affirmed vice versa.

After we at AGS have had two stonking games cancelled (And all of us put loads of work in prior to the events with planning and spending time and money of props etc) we looked at why they did not receive the support. Both events were situated on the South coast which ruled out potential midlands and further north players. 1 event was in July (probably not a good time of year with holidays etc) and 1 of the events was Russian players who had an event already in the year.

I hate games being cancelled and feel for organizers ( This is my take on some of the reasons why they wern`t supported) the Messina game Site looked a great, game rules good, cost average, uniforms OK ( I know there was some issue with American uniforms but not my field so cannot comment) but was 5 hours from where most of us in the South are based so it was probably ruled out on that front alone. If you rule out a large proportion of your player base you are going to struggle unless you are quite happy with less that 10 a side. The Hockwerk game was ruled out by at least 15 of us Germans because we don`t want to sit around for the day for £45 doing nothing. The site looked brilliant and we always support Gunman events but this just doesn`t float out boat. If it would have been a standard Gunman game with missions etc we would have all booked. Most of us are all up for the immersive side of things, at FOY I sat on a hill top all day setting out minefields, barbed wire signs and an aid station and didn`t move more than 50m`s the whole day and had a great time.

My thoughts

1. Price (What a single guy with no kids is going to pay £85 for the weekend is not the same as others who see £35 a good deal where you can go to 2 games for the price of one)
2. Weekend games are fine BUT there are a lot of people on here who cannot do the whole weekend. I myself am a Sat game, evening social back before the misses is up on Sunday (Brownie points) and I believe the 34th are Sat only guys?
3. Location. It Is not rocket science too far North too far South and you limit your market share. Midlands and Thames valley will always be in reach of all.
4. Most people voted on Game style on the recent poll as being the most important. Absolutely but it has to appeal to the 50% in the middle. Too hardcore or too blatfest and you have lost the crossover. You are never going to encourage the Skirmish player to try something at the other end of the spectrum but I know from experience at an AGS game Skirmishers by nature who were given a shovel and sand bags were as happy as Larry building an emplacement to get behind and laying field telephones. They would not even entertained the thought of hiding in a ditch all day or all night evading the enemy.
5. Uniformas and weapons. Be flexible. I have bucket loads of kit but if you say I have to wear jackboots as it is early war then Nein or they didn`t have that badge or button vergess es. At Sevastopol we asked everyone to wear a helmet and boy the pics looked great so I know personally 3 people who invested in helmets as they can be used time and time again, if you ask them to get the 32nd motor rifle typewriter Bn Turkish uniform guess what they don`t book.

OK I expect I will be in for some flak but guess what ICGAT I just want this hobby to succeed and get some games in.

Hey I googled ICGAT and came up with "International Centre for Geoinformatics Applications and Training "

Then I realised what it actually stood for

And yes I agree location was probably the downfall of Messina after all the Doughboys have put on well supported games in the past and have a track record for putting on good games, there were no harsh uniform restrictions or requirements for people to do things out of their comfort zone, although an excellant site and has been well supported in previous years the distance from down south is driving to the Midlands (generally acceptable) but then another hour on top. Nowadays people think twice before going past a 3-4 hour barrier. Last year we struggled to get the numbers for Monte LaDifensa and had to do a lot of networking (theres that word again) and still barely scrapped through, shame because it is an awsome site.

It has been banded about that there are too many games on in the year. I feel that it is not the case.

Gordon, I agree on most of your points made. This one... hmm... I believe we are at saturation point with the number of games advertised, for the number of players there are. In "the good old days" there were say three or four games a year, so naturally, the player base flocked to them because that was the only place they could get their fix. This year, there are probably going to be about 12 events planned. Simple economics say that (even though the player base has increased slightly), you now have to make your choice, so events get squeezed, and the factors of distance, cost and proximity of other games have a much greater effect on the number of players you are likely to get.

some excellent points made by the AGS boys! All of which seem sound to my mind. All will, I'm sure take us the way we want to go. I can't argue with any of Hanschen's points.
As for the amount of games, I too think there's too many. I'll look to attend 4-5 games max a year. If there's 12 to choose from, I like most will put my money on a sure thing and what I know. I tend to look for weekend games as I'm travelling so far, I want to make a weekend of it. This may be where I need to compromise.
What is good to see is we're not getting bogged down in game semantics! I think we all recognise that location, timing and competition are the issues most pressing.
If we can take each game one at a time and get behind it, surely it has a greater chance of success?
So, If AGS are putting on an event the organisers of Pathfinders,34th guys, Wladek and 900 days would put their efforts into attending and getting their friends, associates and others signed up to attend them too. It's surprising how enticing a game becomes when you see 20+ players already booked on.
At the end of the day, a game's a game regardless of who's behind the admin. It is why we're here and this process could have a real galvanising effect on our community.

1. Price (What a single guy with no kids is going to pay £85 for the weekend is not the same as others who see £35 a good deal where you can go to 2 games for the price of one)
2. Weekend games are fine BUT there are a lot of people on here who cannot do the whole weekend. I myself am a Sat game, evening social back before the misses is up on Sunday (Brownie points) and I believe the 34th are Sat only guys?
3. Location. It Is not rocket science too far North too far South and you limit your market share. Midlands and Thames valley will always be in reach of all.
4. Most people voted on Game style on the recent poll as being the most important. Absolutely but it has to appeal to the 50% in the middle. Too hardcore or too blatfest and you have lost the crossover. You are never going to encourage the Skirmish player to try something at the other end of the spectrum but I know from experience at an AGS game Skirmishers by nature who were given a shovel and sand bags were as happy as Larry building an emplacement to get behind and laying field telephones. They would not even entertained the thought of hiding in a ditch all day or all night evading the enemy.
5. Uniformas and weapons. Be flexible. I have bucket loads of kit but if you say I have to wear jackboots as it is early war then Nein or they didn`t have that badge or button vergess es. At Sevastopol we asked everyone to wear a helmet and boy the pics looked great so I know personally 3 people who invested in helmets as they can be used time and time again, if you ask them to get the 32nd motor rifle typewriter Bn Turkish uniform guess what they don`t book

Could these be our 5 commandments?

Whilst Gordon has made some very good points I dont know if they can be taken as our commandments, after all looking at commandment 4 "hiding in a ditch all day or all night evading the enemy" is some peoples idea of what an immersive game should be, otherwise we are just creating a formular for succsesful normal games?

Yep, variety is the spice of life, chaps. But I would say... branch out. Give it a go. Don't just attend one type of event. When I started attending, I knew nobody. You don't just have to attend with mates. This is a very friendly community, with people prepared to lend kit and guns for free to total strangers. Some of my best friends are now from this community.

Whilst Gordon has made some very good points I dont know if they can be taken as our commandments, after all looking at commandment 4 "hiding in a ditch all day or all night evading the enemy" is some peoples idea of what an immersive game should be, otherwise we are just creating a formular for succsesful normal games?

This.

We know what is popular, surely the point is to (in some as yet undefined way) find a wway for what is NOT popular to survive?

We know what is popular, surely the point is to (in some as yet undefined way) find a wway for what is NOT popular to survive?

Well yes I suppose that is the crux of the matter. Now I have tried not to use the Red/Gray squirrel thing because of fears of elitism, but the fact is that because Gray squirrels (as yet undefined) seem to be surviving nicely on there own, Red squirrels (as yet undefined) need the help most. Now CW has quite rightly taken a stance that supports all games (One thing I admire CW and the forum for is that although it grew out of CIA it has become a forum for all WW2 airsofters). So should the group be concentrating on helping the more niche games? probably yes, if it tries to spread its help across all games rather than immersive than whats the point?

The problem though is if it goes down that road will it not be seen as Elitist? and who decides what games to support

Personally I agree with Gordon regarding games. I don't think there are too many, there's simply not enough of the right ones.

If we're looking for people to become involved in WW2 airsoft, it has to be active and involved. Can we seriously expect to be getting new players in, shelling out £300 or £400 in the process on kit and guns, on the understanding that they're going to use it four or five times in a year?

We're not re-enactors; a lot of us have kit to attend as many games as possible.

We need more of the 'right' ones; central location, not priced to the moon, not expecting people to either sit on their arses all day doing bugger all, or shooting seven shades out of anything that moves. The site run games work well as they're affordable and have a ready made player base to draw from. Booking a f*cking 1000 acre forest is all well and good, but if you charge £60 to attend and it's located in a location not dissimilar to the log cabin from Evil Dead, can we really be surprised that it struggles to get bookings?

Sorry, my comment re commandments was a joke. Although there was a lot of sense in what was said.

And the point of all this was to support the more immersive game type, the ones away from the mainstream. The Albany game was something I'd love to attend and is why I tried my upmost to support the Pathfinder lads get it off the ground. And we all signed up to this group to support such an ethos. This is trickier than it seems
I still think that it would be better to have 4-5 successful games than 10-12 insecure games that hang by a thread as to whether they go ahead or not.
My gut also says that only by mutually supporting each others games can we do this. After all, we have all said that this is the game we want. That should be a given at this point. It's a case of how?
What we need to establish is how do we give the games every opportunity of success? Boots on the ground! Pure and simple. And only we can do that through actively going.
My idea remains. We have 30+ players signed up. That's a good sized start. Those 30+ need to come up with a set of principles that will make attending games easier, affordable and enjoyable. We've establish the south coast and Yorkshire seem too far. Price doesn't really seem to be a major issue. AGS Approach to uniforms seems reasonable and doable for most. Dates and frequency seem to be a sticking point though. And without a consensus on this we will have a problem!

In fact,.the more I think on it, the more I think we may be over complicating things!

We have the player base (see register)
We have the organisers (with vast experience)
We know approximately where to hold games
We know style aces scenario
We have the whole of 2015 to plan

What we need are decisions on how many games, when and how do we decide who runs which game. Do we perhaps advertise or pitch games here, say one from each organiser and the most popular games are then rolled out over the year? At least then you know you have the interest.
This means the amount of games is dictated by the group. If interest is high and remain so then more games can be put on?
I'm just brainstorming here, but I think the questions at the beginning of this paragraph remains the important ones

Personally I agree with Gordon regarding games. I don't think there are too many, there's simply not enough of the right ones.

We need more of the 'right' ones; central location, not priced to the moon, not expecting people to either sit on their arses all day doing bugger all, or shooting seven shades out of anything that moves. The site run games work well as they're affordable and have a ready made player base to draw from. Booking a f*cking 1000 acre forest is all well and good, but if you charge £60 to attend and it's located in a location not dissimilar to the log cabin from Evil Dead, can we really be surprised that it struggles to get bookings?

Sorry Gareth I could not disagree more, Yes Gordons guide is an excellant one on how to run a game that appeals to the broad masses, but the fact is that there are a group of players who yearn for something more, We have done the average game and in my case will still continue to because they are enjoyable, but look for some games that offer more.

Booking a f*cking 1000 acre forest is all well and good, but if you charge £60 to attend and it's located in a location not dissimilar to the log cabin from Evil Dead, can we really be surprised that it struggles to get bookings?

Well yes because it is such a better experience than playing on an 'Airsoft site with pallet bunkers! Your a great lad so I certainly dont want to patronize or be Elitist (please I hope I dont come across that way ) but there is more that this hoby has to offer, and if we are debating an immersive experience rather than an average one surely that is something we have to embrace?

For me it is date and to a much lesser degree location and style that stops my attendance. The more immersive games will entice me to travel even further perhaps.

Cost is not a factor as I feel more uncomfortable considering the vast cost of equipment sat around in wardrobes, crates, boxes etc not being used than the comparatively small costs that enable it to see the light of day. I prefer more niche immersive games but the main priority is to use the kit.

I don't think there are too many games because at the moment factors seem to get in the way of my attending some games and if there are 10-12 at least I feel I may be able to get to some. Reduce that to 4-5 and if everything goes wrong that may result in my only attending a couple and then I would have to question the point of my house looking like a Quartermaster's store.

I think there is room for everything 4 to 5 niche games and then other less constricted games.