Two points:
1. I'm pretty sure there is no reason not to carry on with allowing forum members to advertise their RIFs for sale. But, would it be an idea to put a sticky at the top of the thread along the lines of:
VCR Bill. As of 1st October 2007 it is illegal for Realistic Imitation Firearms (RIFs) to be sold, imported or manufactured. Over 18s may have a defence in law if they fulfil certain criteria.
It is incumbent on both buyers and sellers of Realistic Imitation Firearms to satisfy themselves that the other party's eligibility of defence.
Comrades in Arms take no responsibility for goods advertised on this forum nor can they make any statement as to the legal status of any potential buyers or sellers.
2. Kermit hinted at efforts to tackle the question of defence by looking at the reenactors angle. We have brought the question of CiA being a qualified organisation in some way up at meetings before and wasn't pursued as:
a] the situation wasn't clear then
b] it was pretty clear that we needed third party insurance - which we had no need for as we used insured sites would have expense that we would somehow have to recoup
c] it would mean formalising the status of CiA and the potential ball-ache that might be needed (constitution, structure, bank account etc)
So with the Act on top of us is it worth looking at the situation now? It would be great if membership of CiA conferred status of defence in law but I can't see how it would help chaps buy stuff from 6mil (to pluck an example) as they may only accept the 'industry' scheme.
Kermit - just been re-checking the regs with regard to re-enacter status.
37 (2) (e) the organisation and holding of historical re-enactments organised and held by persons specified or described for the purposes of this section by regulations made by the Secretary of State;
This gives a clear Specific Defence to re-enactors.
Further:
37 (7) “historical re-enactmentâ€Â
It should certainly stand up in court. A good lawyer could prove that we fit that category in seconds.
I'm don't know what you think, but would a letter to the Home Office explaining what we do and asking whether it fits the descriptions in those clauses be a good idea? If we had a headed letter saying it did, that would be our defence.
S
Hmm, I don't think the HO would be the slightest bit interested. I doubt whether they would give a yes or no anyway - bound to be non-committal and say it's for the court to decide!
Thing is, we don't want a court to decide - I'm not going to be arrested for importing and then explain myself to a magistrate, even on behalf of others or the greater good.
So, a couple of questions:
Have your enquiries got anywhere yet Jay?
And Richard, if you don't mind me asking - what arrangements have your Chindit group made? What is the structure of the club (rules, committee, bank, insurance). How do they 'prove' they are re-enactors so that you can sell and import RIF's?
I'm not going to be arrested for importing and then explain myself to a magistrate, even on behalf of others or the greater good.
You and me both!
Point by point:
1: People are still waiting for a response from HMRC. It's the usual situation - if they want something, they want it sharpish. If someone wants something from them then its the usual game of "hurry up and wait"
2: "Formalising CiA"
I'll break this down a bit:
A: PLI can be gotten fairly cheap. IIRC, my old reenactment group (I quit last week due to a huge difference of opinion) was paying about £150 a year for it. The side benefit of having PLI is that our arses are covered should something go completely shit shaped at a game, and some arsewipe site operator gets his insurance company to crucify us. Don't think it wont happen. I can name a few Site Ops that would do it at the drop of a hat if they thought it would get them off the hook. One other thing is that certain PLI policies used by re-enactors also come with PAX, this would cover a players arse should they break their foot and be off work for XXX weeks. Another benefit is that some of the policies also cover you in event of your kit getting nicked/run over by a tank. I'll speak to a few people and get details about how/when HMG decided that to be a "proper" reenactment group you had to have PLI.
B: All it would take is a phone call to one of us to check the status of a player as a known Airsoft Skirmisher - in fact, it wouldn't even need that. We have amongst our users one of the best DB builders i've ever met - who happens to owe me a few favours. Give each shop a log-in and password to a secure dbase where they can cross check details. Read only.
C: Side effect of having PLI is that it might persuade certain site ops of our "reponsibility"
D: Yes, its bloody paperwork. But i think the advantages might outweigh the disadvantages.
E: There's a fair few retailers that offer discounts to reenactment group purchases.
Oh, with regards to the comment on 6 Mil. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they go under in the near future. Up the shitter financially it would seem.
On the sales front, its a difficult one. If UKARA give access to a secure scheme for ASSCOCK and Arnies, then I see no reason why this forum couldn't get it, but as it stands i'm not happy with the even vague possibility that one of us could be held responsible for "Aiding in the sale of a RIF to a person not entitled by regulation or amendment to the VCR Act to buy one"
My 2p on it...
When we were a Kingdom it was run by a King
When we were an Empire it was run by an Empress
Now we're a country we're run by a..........
Thank you Jay.
Seems to me that the principal reason for creating a formalised group as either re-enactor (benefit of defence in law) or airsofter (lesser benefit of defence by regulation) would be to allow us/members to import, manufacture and allow retailers and other third parties to sell to us.
I'm guessing but if we went down an airsofter route then we would have to demonstrate a 'robustness' as Boomer is saying and members have to have attended three skirmishes in not less than three months blah blah, whereas re-enactor would be different - I haven't seen anything on re-enactor forums that give any obligation on a particular member to prove status, other than be member of a recognised group.
Which, is well and good. However, this would just be a legal defence.
In practice it's very different, isn't it? If imported goods are impounded why would HMRC or a courier check our database or even accept it's a pukka scheme - they have never heard of us!
Likewise, UK retailers are going to be very cautious - there are bound to be Trading Standards/ Police stings to check up on self-regulation. So, if I order from Airsoft Scotland (for example) and they ask for proof of status and I say I'm a re-enacter with Comrades in Arms, here is the URL to check, why on earth would they accept that or any other of a thousand schemes as valid?
I've been trying to think of similar regulations and it struck me that tobacco/alcohol laws are quite similar. There are rules that state you must not sell to minors (but I don't think the other way round - an under-age person won't be prosecuted for buying fags from a corner shop but the shop licence/counter staff will). So the shop keeper asks for proof of identity which could be anything - bus pass, driver licence, student card etc. The shop keeper has shown diligence (in the absence of a national ID scheme what else can he do?) and if it subsequently comes to pass that they had been deceived with a fake ID then nothing will happen as they did what they could (assuming the minor doesn't look like a 12 year old!).
Sorry, a bit rambling - thought it better to work by examples!
I suppose what I'm saying is that one way or another we can jump through various hoops to gain the legal ability to sell/import RIFs - the practical benefit of doing so might not be there at all.
And to top off a very long post - our Sales section. I can't see any way that we can be accused of "Aiding in the sale of a RIF to a person not entitled by regulation or amendment to the VCR Act to buy one". There are adverts for cars, alcohol, tobacco, air rifles, shot guns, 18 rated films etc everywhere. They don't advocate breaking the law - you can only buy/use the products within the law. Hell, they don't even have to carry disclaimers! A sales section is only advertising, CiA don't deal with either party at all. It's up to the individual to establish a purchaser's legal status.
Possible loophole: Get some of our reenactor friends (Yith? 
) to order for us and give us the kit as 'gifts'.
Or when selling, sell someone a pack of BBs and give the RIFs as a free gift.
Hmm, not so much loopholes as illegal!
I'm seeking a straight forward solution really - I won't have a problem buying RIFs post 1st Oct but others will and even if I don't have a technical problem it's still a practical issue to resolve.
Thank you Jay.
Seems to me that the principal reason for creating a formalised group as either re-enactor (benefit of defence in law) or airsofter (lesser benefit of defence by regulation) would be to allow us/members to import, manufacture and allow retailers and other third parties to sell to us.
Yup, thats about the size of it methinks.
I'm guessing but if we went down an airsofter route then we would have to demonstrate a 'robustness' as Boomer is saying and members have to have attended three skirmishes in not less than three months blah blah, whereas re-enactor would be different - I haven't seen anything on re-enactor forums that give any obligation on a particular member to prove status, other than be member of a recognised group.
All the Axis reenactment groups i know of have a probationary period of a year.
In practice it's very different, isn't it? If imported goods are impounded why would HMRC or a courier check our database or even accept it's a pukka scheme - they have never heard of us!
We await HMR&C's response on this!
Likewise, UK retailers are going to be very cautious - there are bound to be Trading Standards/ Police stings to check up on self-regulation. So, if I order from Airsoft Scotland (for example) and they ask for proof of status and I say I'm a re-enacter with Comrades in Arms, here is the URL to check, why on earth would they accept that or any other of a thousand schemes as valid?
Does make you wonder how companies such as modelguns.co.uk are dealing with the situation.
I suppose what I'm saying is that one way or another we can jump through various hoops to gain the legal ability to sell/import RIFs - the practical benefit of doing so might not be there at all
Very true.
And to top off a very long post - our Sales section. I can't see any way that we can be accused of "Aiding in the sale of a RIF to a person not entitled by regulation or amendment to the VCR Act to buy one". There are adverts for cars, alcohol, tobacco, air rifles, shot guns, 18 rated films etc everywhere. They don't advocate breaking the law - you can only buy/use the products within the law. Hell, they don't even have to carry disclaimers! A sales section is only advertising, CiA don't deal with either party at all. It's up to the individual to establish a purchaser's legal status.
I wouldn't like to be the test case - id far prefer to be over-cautious than under-cautious on this issue.
When we were a Kingdom it was run by a King
When we were an Empire it was run by an Empress
Now we're a country we're run by a..........
Dave, how are you intending to prove your defence? Is it site membership?
I'll go along with the national scheme - I can't see any hassle-free way round it at the moment. It's one thing having a legal defence but quite another getting shops to sell you kit or released from customs. 
Aye, and it proves that those in the Home Office ain't that stupid. Having the Defence by regulation is one thing, how you make use of it is something entirely more difficult....
When we were a Kingdom it was run by a King
When we were an Empire it was run by an Empress
Now we're a country we're run by a..........
Blox to al that, I've been building an enigma all weekend 
Did you see the 'Enigma' film on TV last night? Hope you have got all the cogs and lights working. 
Yep just like that , I really works too . If I type in the letters "tohsdeah" it codes to "cock.nose"
Missed the film although watched it at Gadges a while back ( well the exciting bits anyway) 
OK... I keep asking my CO about the things we've got sorted for the VCR bill and he keeps just saying... "I'm a copper, I have it all in hand, don't worry"
I have a membership card and apparently we're insured, though I don't have the details.
That's all I know right now.
'..don't worry' - that's comforting! Or does he mean if you get nicked his mates will sort it out? 
I would be really useful if you could find out how much your PLI is and the insurance company. (I assume your group does have insurance as I thought all shows insisted on it as a condition of entry.)
I will pester him soon...
