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(@prideofengland)
Noble Member

Well we have 5 paid up for the training so far and others have expressed interest so I thought we should start paying some attention to the training.

Personally I don't think we need huge numbers for this as long as we have something approaching a squad we can make it work.

Below are some musings from myself to get the ball rolling

What’s this all about?

Well the focus will be how to fight as a unit in the field, how a group of airsofters can function together as a WW2 infantry squad or platoon in an accurate, entertaining and hopefully effective manner. There has been great debate previously on the forum about 'real tactics' and why they don't work on an airsoft field,. Also any attempt to reproduce a carefully choreographed text book formation will be doomed to failure as it quickly falls apart.

None of the game organisers are experts in 'field craft' so this will only be lightly touched upon.

We have all seen how effective a squad can be when they regularly fight together and follow orders and this is good to emulate, however our intention is not to make you better 'airsofters' so you can go to your local open day and slaughter noobs. But rather to help you fight cohesively as a squad WW2 squad with all the benefits of immersion that this gives.

Itinerary

1. Basic patrol formations and movement
2. Hand and whistle signals
3. Covered crossing of obstacles
4. Snap ambush
5. Concealment
6. Fire and movement
7. Withdrawing under fire
8. The section in defence

A notebook may be useful.

Suggested timetable:

Distances (30 mins) 0900 to 0930
counting steps to record distance (need 100m marker)
exercise - each individual count steps to find distance, each

weapon ranges (need firing range targets at 20m intervals out to 100m)
discuss effective ranges,
exercise - fire various weapons at targets

basic formations and hand signals (30 mins) 0930 to 1000
key points, numbering, spacing, covered arcs, silence, repeating signals
formations - single column, double column, line - will need to number everyone and form them into two groups. The actual truppen organisation is too complex so I'd suggest just two truppe, split evenly, but with one commanded by the truppenfuhrer.
signals - halt/down, move, single file, double file, skirmish line, on me, enemy in sight (we can mainly use the German signals, but two of them are very silly compared to modern versions!)
exercise - number everyone, form up in different formations, practice moving and changing formation. March off to the next exercise…. (can fudge the times a bit here, need time for the next bit)

movement (15 mins) 1000 to 1015
scouts - introduce a scout while moving
obstacle crossing - drill for crossing a road, or skyline etc. recce, prep, all go at once.
snap ambush - introduce concept, do a dry run (this will take the longest)
exercise - do a hot run with an umpire

Concealment and Jungle Lane (45 mins) - run together 1015 to 1100

Concealment
Brief on principles of concealment (v. basic! - shape, shadow, shine, tone, movement)
shape - conceal unatural shapes like helmets, gear
shadow - again shadow on gear, but also use of shadow for concealment
shine - no shiny stuff
tone - hue of clothing, darker is better, remove light colours incl flesh, aware of background avoid plain background
movement - no movement or slow natural movement, looking around cover not over

exercise1 - half group concealed in patch of ground, weapons sighted on umpire. Other half of group try to spot (similar exercise as Pete & Headshot, use coloured cards not numbered). Halfway through, change sides.

If we get through this too quick...

exercise2 - 'the stalk', mark a point with a flag, one man designated as sentry to guard it, rest of group lie down around it. Other group starts 100m or so away, and tries to get within 25m of it. 'Sentry' holds up arm/flag/marker while he can see enemy, rest of group observe but don't speak to flagman, record time enemy in sight. Reverse sides and try again.

Meanwhile….

Jungle Lane
Run the Jungle Lane in pairs, taken from the ‘spotting’ group. I reckon 10 mins per pair?

Ideally need 3 umpires to run these side by side, 2 for the spotting, 1 for the lane but could manage with two. A couple of radios might be useful (I have a couple of Cobra radios), plus some cards. Main thing we need is a patch of ground suitable for the concealment exercise, and close by, a spot for the Jungle Lane.

Fire and Movement (90 mins) 1100 to 1230
Brief on minor infantry tactics, key points, covered approach, locate-pin-flank-destroy, flank attacks, example drill, airsoft guns different to real ones. O group, recce, plan
Workable airsoft tactics - two fireteams/groups (alternate rushes), individual rush (pepperpot), maybe rush by pairs. Do the stuff from the Alte Hasen manual (one truppe pin and one flank or both advance alternatively. The truppenfuhrer will have to run one truppe.

exercise1 - practice, practice, practice. Do dry runs, march in the woods, take it in turns to be section leader etc.

exercise2 - Practice frontal assaults against pair of umpires working on hit and fall back. Do this a number of times.

Need a suitable piece of ground for exercise 2 (ideally ex 1 ends up there) so we can do repeat assaults. There is a bit of scope for fudging times here if timings have gone wrong.

lunch (30 mins) 1230 to 1300

Withdrawal (15 mins) 1300 to 1315

Drill for withdrawal in contact (by groups or pairs) - leapfrog.
Exercise - practice it, let players run the section etc

Defence (45 mins) 1315 to 1400

Layout of defence, covering the arcs etc
Exercise - set a defence up on different patches of ground? Maybe umpires or players probe it? Not sure about how to run this one

Endex 1400

Quote
Topic starter Posted : 04/06/2014 7:26 am
MartinR
(@martinr)
Famed Member

I'll have to see if I'm free for this, however it should be possible to include some very basic fieldcraft:

1. in the first section on movement - counting steps, silence on the march, periodic 'soak time' to stop and listen. You could even do a short exercise on silent movement splitting the group in two, one lot listen, the others try and move silently.

2. The other thing of value is concealment, particularly use of shadow and background. Again, you could use a variant of Petes exercise - half the squad hides in a patch of ground with clear LOS to a target, the other half try and spot them then swap over and try it the other way around.

For the fire and movement thing you could do advancing by alternate groups, but also the individual rush (up, ten steps forward, down and shoot, rinse & repeat).

Anyway, just a few thoughts.

Cheer
Martin

"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" Helmuth von Moltke
Toys: AGM MP40, Cyma M1A1, TM M14/G43/SVT40, TM VSR/K98, SnS No. 4, ASG Sten, Ppsh.

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Posted : 04/06/2014 7:57 am
(@prideofengland)
Noble Member

Some good idea's Martin

I also liked Pete's Jungle lane, good fun and a good way to get people working as a pair and communicating.

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Topic starter Posted : 04/06/2014 8:07 am
MartinR
(@martinr)
Famed Member

I think the jungle lane would be beyond our ability to set up, but I thought about more team based versions of the movement and hiding thing.

I have various fieldcraft exercises in my March 1944 'Infantry Fieldcraft and Tactics' and 1942 'Battle School' manuals, as well as tactical exercises.

Cheers
Martin

"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" Helmuth von Moltke
Toys: AGM MP40, Cyma M1A1, TM M14/G43/SVT40, TM VSR/K98, SnS No. 4, ASG Sten, Ppsh.

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Posted : 04/06/2014 10:18 am
(@bigkie)
Prominent Member

Some interesting bits there guys. I am happy to leave this to you guys to see what you decide on as its more the german guys that have been together at events will benefit maybe a bit more where as for the russian guys who will be left its more about getting that first stage of a group together so maybe more see them as a bit of an 'opfor' and get them get a bit more shooting time together to see if something gels.
Think it would be nice to have the first hour or so going through whatever points you want to cover then we can have some set up of objectives to work against.

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Posted : 04/06/2014 8:43 pm
MartinR
(@martinr)
Famed Member

I am sure we can come up with stuff which everyone can take part in, we don't necessarily need to focus on building up two groups or whatever.

I need to discuss with SWMBO about the Sunday, but assuming I can do it:

What are the training day numbers looking like? What do we think about doing something Saturday night (before everyone gets pissed up!) - the Red Hang Gang night evasion thing we did with CiA was great and might be replicable. Did we have an end time for Sunday in mind (I was thinking around 2, maybe earlier if we've been up late).

Cheers
Martin

"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" Helmuth von Moltke
Toys: AGM MP40, Cyma M1A1, TM M14/G43/SVT40, TM VSR/K98, SnS No. 4, ASG Sten, Ppsh.

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Posted : 21/08/2014 11:47 am
(@bigkie)
Prominent Member

I know whatever you guys come up with will be great but just stumbled across this Gebrigs re enactment group training manual so thought I would share.

http://www.2ndgebirgsjager.com/uploads/ ... _final.pdf

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Posted : 03/09/2014 7:17 am
MartinR
(@martinr)
Famed Member

Thanks Kie.

Having had a chat about it at the weekend I've had a go at working up a 'lesson plan' (I used to be a teacher back in the dim mists of time) with tasks, key learning points, timings, required terrain and suggested props and see what we think. I was thinking a fairly early kick off.

Either 9am or if we are feeling hardcore, up at dawn, do some stuff for an hour or so, then back for breakfast. What do we think? Civilised or hardcore?

I've edited the top post to keep it simple. How does that look as a first cut?

A few things we need to sort out - which signals? I've had a guess at timings and they aren't set in stone but I don't want to be going much past 2pm. We have alot to get through and if we extend some things, others may slip (which is why defence is last!). I'm a bit vague about what we want to do about defence

Cheers
Martin

"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" Helmuth von Moltke
Toys: AGM MP40, Cyma M1A1, TM M14/G43/SVT40, TM VSR/K98, SnS No. 4, ASG Sten, Ppsh.

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Posted : 05/09/2014 7:41 am
(@prideofengland)
Noble Member

Hi Martin

I take for ever in the morning to wake up so my tendency is to less hardcore, however I dont want to be a party pooper so let us know what your thinking :D I will post up some idea's for a schedule etc later tonight or tomorrow, just got a busy day ahead feel free to incorporate or reject my idea's as you see fit.

On a non training point, before the game begins I was thinking of mustering the German troops and having a church service as per the film Stalingrad, would anyone object?

Kieran were you supposed to give me a CD of intel documents?

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Topic starter Posted : 06/09/2014 11:38 am
MartinR
(@martinr)
Famed Member

Hi Tim,

in the suggested timings in the edited first post, I've suggested a 9am start, which on reflection I think will be fine. We'll be knackered from Saturday, especially if we have to spend some time Saturday evening doing some setup.

I'll have a think about hand signals and formations, as this stuff can get really complicated and confusing.

Cheers
Martin

"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" Helmuth von Moltke
Toys: AGM MP40, Cyma M1A1, TM M14/G43/SVT40, TM VSR/K98, SnS No. 4, ASG Sten, Ppsh.

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Posted : 06/09/2014 4:21 pm
(@prideofengland)
Noble Member

I had not realised you had edited the first post, thats really good work Martin, it already incorporates my idea's so saves me a job

I will be walking the dogs on site today but will primarily be looking at points for the batteries etc. I will do another visit next week to look for places to carry out the training :D

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Topic starter Posted : 07/09/2014 8:39 am
MartinR
(@martinr)
Famed Member

Thanks Tim, I thought I'd try and work both our ideas in. The timings are a bit of a guess, we may be trying to fit too much in, but we can always slip the end back if we overrun.

The main extra props we need are some mine tape and targets for the jungle lane (plus, are you thinking of targets for the range estimate thing?). I've sorted out some cards and binos for the spotting/concealment exercise.

I reckon most of the stuff is covered in the Alte Hasen manual, including the hand signals. The modern versions of 'on me' and 'enemy in sight' are a lot more sensible than the WW2 German ones, but we can use either. As discussed, we should probably only do half a dozen signals. It is really hard to remember this stuff without a ton of practice.

For formations we should probably just stick to two truppen rather than worrying about MG and rifle truppe - the evolutions for the rifle truppe are quite complex depending what they are doing. Two truppe will be fine for F&M, flank attacks and also for F&M by pairs or even individuals

Shall I put the brief itinerary up on the live game thread with estimated start/stop times?

Cheers
Martin

"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" Helmuth von Moltke
Toys: AGM MP40, Cyma M1A1, TM M14/G43/SVT40, TM VSR/K98, SnS No. 4, ASG Sten, Ppsh.

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Posted : 07/09/2014 4:21 pm
(@prideofengland)
Noble Member

Shall I put the brief itinerary up on the live game thread with estimated start/stop times?

Cheers
Martin

Yes that would be good mate, who knows we might get a couple more interested as well

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Topic starter Posted : 07/09/2014 5:59 pm
(@bigkie)
Prominent Member

Guys I know you have put a lot of effort into the training session for the Sunday. but by the looks of it there are only going to be a small handful of participants I am just being devils advocate here and wondering if it is worth holding the training for future.

Of course if you get a lot of people on the Saturday saying they are coming back on the Sunday then all good (Such as Stut and his local boys) but just a thought.

Don't wan to be harbinger of doom etc. but would rather everyone's hard work will be worth it. Also if the weather reports are as they are and people get drenched Saturday then it may give rise to people wanting to go home etc.

I know negative waves and all that

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Posted : 08/10/2014 8:12 am
MartinR
(@martinr)
Famed Member

Kie, are you thinking we should cancel it and give a refund?

I've slightly lost track of who we have left for it now.

Cheers
Martin

"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" Helmuth von Moltke
Toys: AGM MP40, Cyma M1A1, TM M14/G43/SVT40, TM VSR/K98, SnS No. 4, ASG Sten, Ppsh.

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Posted : 08/10/2014 9:30 am
(@bigkie)
Prominent Member

I know from the bookings that there are three people who said they definitely were going to be attending the Sunday, with two possibles. I am just trying to gauge whether it is viable for this event?
Its you two who have put the work into this and I just want to make sure its all worth it and not something we should have available for the future.
I will go with whatever the consensus is but just thought its something to be discussed.

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Posted : 08/10/2014 12:02 pm
MartinR
(@martinr)
Famed Member

Hmm, three definites is certainly getting a bit light, we'll have more umpires than players! It will make running the jungle run/spotting thing simultaneously difficult.

Not sure we'll ever get huge numbers for a training event, but tacking it onto a game event was always going to be a bit tricky. My personal preference would be to run the whole thing as a short weekend event (so Saturday lunchtime to Sunday lunchtime) so we can get an evening/night activity in as well as the other stuff.

I think some of the stuff we've got lined up will still be viable with the numbers we've got, and a lot of it is re-runnable in future as there is benefit in practice. otoh if all we end up with is a couple of drenched and frozen people on Sunday, it isn't going to be much fun.

Any thoughts Tim? I'll be out of touch most of tomorrow.

Cheers
Martin

"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" Helmuth von Moltke
Toys: AGM MP40, Cyma M1A1, TM M14/G43/SVT40, TM VSR/K98, SnS No. 4, ASG Sten, Ppsh.

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Posted : 08/10/2014 12:56 pm
(@prideofengland)
Noble Member

To be honest I would say 6 was a minimum number to make it work, 3 probable and 2 possible does not really cut it. As Martin say's if its just a handful of sodden people its not going to be much fun. I'm not worried about the planning time as Martin has again said that can be re-used some other time its begining to not look viable, is it best to cancel the training?

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Topic starter Posted : 08/10/2014 3:13 pm
MartinR
(@martinr)
Famed Member

OK, unless anyone has a strong objection. lets cancel it for this time. It is a shame, but we can re-use the stuff we've already done in future.

We need to let the attendees know asap as it may affect their travel plans etc.

Cheers
Martin

"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" Helmuth von Moltke
Toys: AGM MP40, Cyma M1A1, TM M14/G43/SVT40, TM VSR/K98, SnS No. 4, ASG Sten, Ppsh.

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Posted : 08/10/2014 3:34 pm
(@prideofengland)
Noble Member

Ok, are all agreed?

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Topic starter Posted : 08/10/2014 3:53 pm
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