Post-game discussion of rifle only concept

I say stuff the aeg users Craig and, stick with this format. No smg's or support weapons just to cater for those who don't buy into the concept. "If you build it, they will come" applies to this kind of format and, if people don't want to buy in, or moan about it, then tough titty for them.

Not quite the responce I was after.

I am glad that Dadio & Seanebabes who atteneded the event agree, that with effort the rules that were used for Eagles could be rolled out to have SMG's and support weapons. This sounds ideal to me personally. And i am happy to sign up with a rifle.

Stu

Pete' Dave and Josh have basically said if it aint broke dont fix it, and the game worked so well that if another rifles only game was arranged not only would everyone who went to Eagles attend but so would many others who have read the post game comments and that is all well and good. But this would be the safe option, to try to incorporate smg and lmgs in some format would push the concept, yet still keep a predominately rifles game. The trouble is that involves some experimentation and therefore risks a degree of failure, but the results would be well worth the effort. Dealing with an enemy MG just involves more squad tactics and leadership from the NCO.

i'd definitely go to another rifles only game in a heart beat,but i'd also like to see what would happen to an smg under the same ammo restriction and medic rules.and storming a lmg with rifles would be a good challenge as an objective as well.

We did do this to an extent at Il Gigio, iirc the ammo limits were 200 for rifles & SMGs and 1200 (??) for the MGs. It was distinctly depressing trying to storm the Bren gun position on top of position 'A' armed only with bolt action and semi-auto rifles! We did get there in the end though.

That game worked very well in terms of modelling the MGs as the core of the section firepower, but obviously relied on people bringing lots of custom MGs.

I would second Petes comments about knobheads and hot AEGs. Perhaps a bit more explanation of what 'dont be a cock' actually means in the briefings might help.

Cheers
Martin

I think more than anything I'm defending Craig's simple concept and expressed non-inclusivity. A rifles only game is just that, rifles only.

Sure, you can add mg posts to the mix as objectives (heh, there was a 30 cal there and I think having it firing would have added something to that segment - both sides, those attacking and those keeping it fed and operational) but to shoehorn SMGs, crippled SMGs at that, into the mix (for the sake of what? Realism? Inclusivity? Neither make sense.) would not have made Craig's concept any better it would just have pushed airsofter's fixation with guns back into the equation. Craig's game was more than that!

Am I advocating rifles only games from now on? - no, I like variety, I've enjoyed most games up 'til now, SMGs are fun
Am I advocating sub-350 fps rifles from now on? - no, love 500 fps rifles in a game, the perfect antidote to SMGs
Am I advocating massively reduced ammo limits from now on? - no, we play GAMES, ammo limits are determined by the game concept
Am I advocating crippling SMGs so sub-350fps rifles can 'compete'? - no, that is arse about tit, we left open day 'it's not fair' behind years ago
Would I go to another rifles only game? - yes, (hopefully with a rifle that works)
Am I bothered that players without rifles can't attend a rifles only game? - no, player's choice which gun they buy - should have bought an M14 not a Thompson! Bugger inclusivity as a mantra for every game - organisers have the right to lay down rules as they see fit
Are you not concerned about realism then? - pish, airsoft has nothing to do with realism, except the uniforms we wear look similar. Most soldiers never saw who they are shooting at, then as now, until they surrendered or were dead. They certainly didn't spend the day exchanging shots in full view from 20 or 30 feet away.

Im thinking of exploring the concept in a game next year.

Officers command, with a pistol for personal defence.
A squad sgt would have an smg 120 rds only .all others rifles
And mg team would have an mg and 2 assistants with rifles.

Squads of 8 - 10 men

Just a concept.

Im also im the middle if trying to get a woodland site off the ground. Or maybe use an existing site.

Just my ideas, i think lots of people with different concepts is a good thing for varity

Am I advocating rifles only games from now on? - no, I like variety, I've enjoyed most games up 'til now, SMGs are fun
Am I advocating sub-350 fps rifles from now on? - no, love 500 fps rifles in a game, the perfect antidote to SMGs
Am I advocating massively reduced ammo limits from now on? - no, we play GAMES, ammo limits are determined by the game concept
Am I advocating crippling SMGs so sub-350fps rifles can 'compete'? - no, that is arse about tit, we left open day 'it's not fair' behind years ago
Would I go to another rifles only game? - yes, (hopefully with a rifle that works)
Am I bothered that players without rifles can't attend a rifles only game? - no, player's choice which gun they buy - should have bought an M14 not a Thompson! Bugger inclusivity as a mantra for every game - organisers have the right to lay down rules as they see fit
Are you not concerned about realism then? - pish, airsoft has nothing to do with realism, except the uniforms we wear look similar. Most soldiers never saw who they are shooting at, then as now, until they surrendered or were dead. They certainly didn't spend the day exchanging shots in full view from 20 or 30 feet away.

This is generally how I feel about airsoft too and was just taking a devil's advocate role to discuss the event I never went too I couldn't care less if someone had a post war entrenching tool and water bottle. All i care about is turning up to an event and having a good time and hopefully taking some good memories away with me.

If you include smg who gets to carry them? Smg only owners would want to book in as they can now be a part of the game but would they be the ones you want carrying them on the field? Automatic promotion to NCOs by way of 'that's the only gun I got'.
If you call another rifles only game but then let the nco and officers carry smg, the people you want carrying them, then that's perhaps better?

I still think another Rifles game would still only get around 12 per side, so, even if one was wanting SMGs in the mix, there would only be 1 SMG per side.

Or maybe less, depends when we set it...

They certainly didn't spend the day exchanging shots in full view from 20 or 30 feet away.

They would have if their eyesight was as bad as mine and still not hit anything!

But seriously your right Dave, as much as I enjoyed Eagles the variety of game styles is part of the attraction for me.

I hope we do have another rifles only game. It was fun and brought out other aspects of games like section tactics and self preservation. Though I did manage to get shot in virtually every scenario even ones where I would quite happily have surrended if someone had asked nicely not just shot me! The limited ammo and grenades seemed to make people less likely to use them. I think Craig took home most of the grenades that were brought for us to use. They were issued out but not thrown. This may have been due to the nature of the site. The dykes offered hard cover but the bushy tops made lobbing one over too much of a lottery.
Another option on sections having LMG,Rifles and SMG may be to have sides that are different sizes! A section strength side maybe with an MMG would defend, and patrol against an opposing force of a platoon of 3 sections using realistic ammo levels and resupply along with strict medic rules.
As we are perhaps all saying is that Airsoft can never be completely realistic as people would die. These different game concepts like Rifle only look to explore different ways of getting bits of a realistic or at least exciting and enjoyable experience.

just had an idea how to reduce the smg's range,0.3 or 0.35 even 0.4g bb's price is not an issue due to the low ammo consumption in this style game.would not need any gun modification or hop off etc but would reduce the range dramatically .

That could be the answer to many issues and a great suggestion, however some mags dont like heavy BBs as the springs in them are shite, but thats the best one yet. Dont like the turn your hop off as guys will end up fishing for a kill and mixed BBs can fook up and jam (break) guns so not too keen on that. (we use mixed ammo of .2 and .25 for fallout but thats it)

My next Secret Mission next year will be real steal and ill push somwe of thease ideas into the field and see what happens. To be honest thats why Ops weekend are so good. You get to try out loads of cool ideas and see them in the field!

Exciting stuff this, I am a bit of a radical at heart you know

As we are perhaps all saying is that Airsoft can never be completely realistic as people would die. These different game concepts like Rifle only look to explore different ways of getting bits of a realistic or at least exciting and enjoyable experience.

Spot and and the great thing is we get to tinker with our games and try new stuff out and will never get bored of experimenting to see what works and doesnt.

At Road to Caern, I whitnessed a whole 10man unit of FJ get pushed out for the field by 47 commando and 6 rifleman, 2 Thompson and Big Mike with his service revolver. We all had MP40s and for that battle, the wrong gun for the fight. We were saved by the 16th who came to our rescue and forced a retreat from 47 (vikers you were there for this!)
Later, we engaged 47 again, but this time WE chose the battle ground (tight net trees and shrub) so our MP40s wouldnt be outranged. I have never had the chance since then to use actual tactical choices becuase of the weapons being used. Loads of other reasons, but never that. The experience you guys had would have found other tactical uses that Ive not had as Ive never taken part in a rifle only game, but can imagine it was close to many single shot only scenarios I have been in. Again, top work gents.

This sounds ideal to me personally. And i am happy to sign up with a rifle.

Lord be praised. Craig can now sleep sound in the knowledge that you might attend one of his games in the future.

Oh dear

Oh dear

I've never attended an airsoft game, so i don't know if this is practical, but why don't people set up squads here on the forum in the format of real squads of the time (weather they be British, German, American, etc, etc) i.e. a British 10 man section would consist of:
1x section leader (Sten)
1x assistant section leader (Rifle)
5x riflemen (Rifle)
Bren section
1x Bren section leader(Sten)
1x Bren gunner (Bren)
1x assistant Bren gunner (Rifle)

And people get appointed positions according to what they either have or can get i.e. if you have a rifle then you use that.

(I may have buggered my own theory here as I have corporal patches on my BD as I use a Sten and I felt that it looked unrealistic for a private to have a Sten)
But you get the gist

it depends upon the game that is being run. Some organisers will let this be determined by players on the day, some in advance, some will put them into squads on the day. I do the later (where it is applicable).

Plus there have been discussions, and I am of the opinion, that full sized squads do not work in the medium we are playing in.

Plus again if your commanders are actually 'commanding', as opposed to just being there for the story/keeping everyone in line, then they have to command these 'sections/squads/units/entities', and you want ideally at least 3 elements. So unless you have over 30 players per side it is tricky.

Plus for this game an SMG would have spoiled it, nominal squad leader role or not.

But if your trying to get realism the rifles only kinda defeats the concept as there would have been a few smg's and mg's in most squads of the time, I stand by my theory that realistic squads are the easiest way to achieve realism (weapons wise), and if the problem with that is numbers, why not test the theory on a game with relaxed uniform requirements and the turn out would hopefully be good enough to organise the bunch into realistic squads and test said theory?
Another thing im curious about is has there ever been a game where commanders have been given a briefing on the objectives and who's squad does what and when (much like a real military briefing) and then been left to they're own devices once in the field?

(don't get me wrong, id be more than happy to use a rifle but in thinking of ways to make things more realistic than they already are).

Another thing im curious about is has there ever been a game where commanders have been given a briefing on the objectives and who's squad does what and when (much like a real military briefing) and then been left to they're own devices once in the field?

I think the many of games I've played have been like that, albeit usually with a command structure bolted on top and comms via runner/radio/phone.

Cheers
Martin

But if your trying to get realism the rifles only kinda defeats the concept as there would have been a few smg's and mg's in most squads of the time, I stand by my theory that realistic squads are the easiest way to achieve realism (weapons wise), and if the problem with that is numbers, why not test the theory on a game with relaxed uniform requirements and the turn out would hopefully be good enough to organise the bunch into realistic squads and test said theory?

The problem is not just numbers, it is functionality. the SMGs we use have a range and accuracy which does not make them function like an SMG relative to the rifles they are used alongside and pitted against. So the people using the rifles do not get to experience the realism of their function as mentioned.