What I said about kit was relevant, because you made a comment about people having money for kit but not for attending events. What I said about feeling the need to meet a certain standard [hence the expenditure] with kit was in response to that.
But it's not particularly true, though, you don't need to meet *any* standards to come to an event. It's perfectly possible to attend a ww2 event without a scrap of ww2 kit. Hell, I've got 4 brit uniforms and 4 german ones alone, along with half a dozen usable guns that I'm happy to lend out to players if I'm attending an event.
Many people will happily lend you kit, if you show the interest in actually attending.
From a (pretty much now former) organiser's point of view, the constant badgering for players to sign up made me think that what we were offering wasn't necessarily what people wanted. Our events always sold out by the time they went ahead, but it made it kind of feel like a chore. I just wanted to put on events i wanted to be a part of, not be some kind of carnival huckster, touting for business.
As 'community' organisers, we're doing this because we put on events we want to run, and at the best, we break even. without player engagement, we risk quite substantial financial losses, and frankly, in the current 'market', the risk's too great, so I'm out.
Oh, and some random smileys to show I'm not being pissy! 
OK, if it helps 
From a (pretty much now former) organiser's point of view, the constant badgering for players to sign up made me think that what we were offering wasn't necessarily what people wanted. Our events always sold out by the time they went ahead, but it made it kind of feel like a chore. I just wanted to put on events i wanted to be a part of, not be some kind of carnival huckster, touting for business.
THIS! I remember fondly the time we sold out one of our events in a day. I can't remember which it was, but we had at least 50 people on it.
From a (pretty much now former) organiser's point of view, the constant badgering for players to sign up made me think that what we were offering wasn't necessarily what people wanted. Our events always sold out by the time they went ahead, but it made it kind of feel like a chore. I just wanted to put on events i wanted to be a part of, not be some kind of carnival huckster, touting for business.
THIS! I remember fondly the time we sold out one of our events in a day. I can't remember which it was, but we had at least 50 people on it.
Op' Ariel I believe
For those that haven't noticed, we've just announced that single-day bookings for Hut 9. No need to rough it or not get back to tuck the kids in. Fewer excuses not to come!
Marvellous.
Booked on. 
Personal circumstances have meant that I have had to pull out of three events in the last year and while that shouldn't now be a problem going forward, unfortunately 2 of the 3 events I desperately want to attend clash with holidays already booked. Such is the appeal of these events to me that I am still undecided on whether to pull out of the holidays as their drawl, now I am aware of the clash, has significantly diminished!
I can totally understand the desire to get the kit right and I think that is (should be) an important part of the hobby. And as an aside Killacommy was brilliantly turned out at Crete and his enthusiasm is spot on. Yes, there will always be reasons why people won't be able to attend events, life seems to become increasingly difficult to fit in and decisions and priorities are made. BUT I cannot understand some people's economics that allow a massive accumulation of kit for no real purpose. Of course geography and transport can be a problem but that is just how it is; if you want to play more than a couple of games a year on new and different sites, sites that reflect the scenario, then you are going to have to travel.
Running around in a field firing pellets at people 30feet away is all very well and is enjoyable for an afternoon's fun but the moments don't live with you and the experience isn't the same as those events where real thought has gone into creating a "reality" whether it be at Horn where the Home Guard drilled while the Signals put a tent up and spent an age trying to get the phones to work getting nasty shocks in the process; Crete with its initial air raid, call to stations and movements to deploy; Sevastapol watching the grey clad Heer take forever to approach etc.The "slow" patches can be what really create the immersion, not slow bits where you sit around waiting to be shepherded to the next "mission"/firefight but a considered time for immersion in the mundanities of being a soldier. The contrast when action does happen only amplifies the experience. But it requires a willingness to buy into the concept of WW2 Airsoft and the ability to get as much enjoyment out of the time when the enemy are nowhere to be seen as when they are just passing the bush you are hiding in.
To be honest I don't understand why people aren't booking on in their droves to Messina and Hut 9. These events will be excellent. I think we should be doing all we can to support AGS, CIA, Doughboys, Wladek etc. when they put on events, they really do know what they are doing, they are not expensive and they give that little bit extra as each event is its own unique experience. Nor should we be simply dismissing Gunman when he twists the formula a little to create different experiences.
Cheers
Charlie
I have a small skewer hidden in the collar of my jumping jacket, and a razorblade in my gaiter, as well as my knife.
This seems to be a recurring theme and one where my fingers were burned through misinterpreted intent. There's a division in the community re what is wanted so how do we rectify this? Do we need fewer games? Is the choice too great meaning we are pulling the finite pool of players in too many directions? If there were only 6 games a year we may be more likely to attend, say half? I'm fed up of booking on to games that end up cancelling. I don't know how many active players we have but, it obviously isn't enough to cover all the games. I personally look to attend both Gunman battle weekends (the most likely to go ahead and I love a big game to start and end the year) and then I'll pick one or two that I like the look of. Due to this, I'll not attend several of the advertised games. In my opinion, we need to control the amount of games being put on. I don't know if that means that the organisers need to work together in order to achieve this or what? But the more choice we have the more likely we will dilute attendances and have to cancel games. Either that or run a sub section to this site where people wanting a certain game experience can sign in and organise themselves!
Yes, the organisers do consult each other and cooperate to get an even spacing between events. I don't think there is any need to limit events, it is self-limiting anyway (number of people who want to organise, number of players available).
There is also a wide variety of game styles allowing players choose something they want to play. If this was artificially restricted, what would get binned and why? Who decides? Do we only have large player number, low kit requirement, low immersion games - guaranteed to top 100 players? Do we want to give players no option but to play a 'rifles only, strategic' game when all they want to do is kill as many enemy as possible?
For sure, there are too many games for the number of players but ultimately it is player-power that dictates what runs and what doesn't. Democratic, like.
For sure, there are too many games for the number of players but ultimately it is player-power that dictates what runs and what doesn't. Free-market economics, like.
Fixed it for you.
nope, sorry that is soooo not right. As much as I have avoided typing all day you are living in a fantasy land Dave.
Organisers USED to co-operate, maybe, sure - and certain organisers do now. I spoke with all of them during the planning and month listing phases of 'this year'. But they are all the 'hobby' organisers. The site run themed games people do not co-operate at all. Gunman doesn't, Fireball doesn't, pathfinder hasn't and johnny-Normandy definitely hasn't. Non of them consulted anybody, arranged with or discussed with anybody. They all just said when they were running games and did it. Even when informed this was creating a problem.
Oh and democratic is one way of looking at it, Darwinian is another. Sure the Grey Squirrels are cute, but fill the woods with them and all the Red Squirrels die. Just leaving them all alone does not create diversity, quite the opposite.
Oh, and what kind of artificial restriction? How about one event per organiser only, given that we have so many interested parties now. that way we keep the diversity, in fact make it as diverse as possible, and not overcrowd the calendar.
Or how about saying this is a community forum, not an advertising billboard, so only those who have been to a community event in the last year can run something on here/advertise on here.
Or create a new section for commercial games run by site owners/marshals, distinct from community/hobby ones. That way everyone is informed about what they are booking onto when they book on - and community games are not hindered by having to constantly move around, or not even get chance to run, because all the dates have been taken by site run games.
There is no such thing as a free market anyway, they are all regulated to some degree, and as this is a community not a street bazaar there should be no feeling of shame or horror in doing so. Non of those propositions are unreasonable and all of them more successfully support the spirit of diversity you have mentioned then the present state.
It aint just a case of 'people should book more' only, and I stand by my original point that has been ignored (and is now allegory-ised) - The Grey Squirrels are Killing the Red Squirrels. If you actually want diversity you have to control the Grey Squirrel population.
I think only Gunman is a commercial organisation - all the rest are just clubs. That is to say an income isn't drawn. I stand to be corrected by representatives of Fireball & Pathfinder.
CiA, Wladek and Doughboy games (and others to a lesser degree) actively discourage players so these will always be small games, teetering on the edge of viability. A bit like Pandas. Or Red Squirrels.
Then you have club games (that's where WW2 airsoft started!) - much more viable, ready pool of players already in their comfort zone.
Then you have commercial games with the financial power to advertise and pull players from outside of a free forum.
I have not sided with your original post as I am more aligned with Tim's way of thinking. I don't like elitism or snobbery and I am content with players doing as they please. One game absolutely isn't better than another, they are different. You surely don't want players to be forced to go to be a Red Squirrel, surely? Have you not had the freedom to put on two games this year?
And yes, democratic. Players vote with their feet. You might well be a member of the Monster Raving Loony Party but that doesn't mean everyone else has to be. What you can do is try and persuade them to give Loonyism a try - and there is your challenge.
As for the other suggestions, well, there will be plenty of space on the calendar next year. I shan't be attempting to coordinate games, chaps can do what the hell they like - no one actually wants to work together, they just want to do their own thing!
bit too tired to reply at the moment but just a quick look through the organisers section regarding "proposed" dates we asked about to all those on there
and one quote i made on it
"and i never asked them to be put in the calendar i was just throwing the dates around for other organizers here to see if it clashed with any ones plans, so we could all work together to try and get some dates / games up for players to start planning , last couple of years we lost a few games due to various reasons so hoping that 2014 will be a great one for the entire ww2 airsoft community"
so hows that not asking etc , and we were asked if one of the dates could go to another organiser and we did it 
and how we not grouped in the "hobby section" , Fireball is a club no one gets paid at all its run by members to help run the airsoft games its members like, and the reason we run some games is , we were asked to.
If folks dont want to come to our games, thats their choice, as far as i am aware most folks seem to have had a good time at our games, but i not going to pm you etc and say why dont you come to our games, I just think not every game is every ones cup of tea. I have no qualms with running less games as saves me spending weeks sorting things , folks building props and preparing what ever site we use.
Or create a new section for commercial games run by site owners/marshals, distinct from community/hobby ones. That way everyone is informed about what they are booking onto when they book on - and community games are not hindered by having to constantly move around, or not even get chance to run, because all the dates have been taken by site run games.
That is not a bad idea. Why not split the games section into categories? This would help in several ways. We would be able to see which are community games which we should try to support if possible. In addition games like San Marino and possibly the controversial Combat south Normandy game, which are more suited to beginners could get their own section. This would help promote the community games and also help new players who have limited kit find games to get a feel for ww2airsoft without feeling they need to fork out a fortune first.
just for the record i dont think any style of game is wrong but they not all suited for everyone also for example for most of our bunch "weekends" are a straight no, hence we have to try and get single day games or those like joshs that do single days, and i am sure there must be more folks on here that also do other things like Nam , modern , Wild west etc there is only so much time before you are hit with divorce papers 
Or create a new section for commercial games run by site owners/marshals, distinct from community/hobby ones. That way everyone is informed about what they are booking onto when they book on - and community games are not hindered by having to constantly move around, or not even get chance to run, because all the dates have been taken by site run games.
That is not a bad idea. Why not split the games section into categories? This would help in several ways. We would be able to see which are community games which we should try to support if possible. In addition games like San Marino and possibly the controversial Combat south Normandy game, which are more suited to beginners could get their own section. This would help promote the community games and also help new players who have limited kit find games to get a feel for ww2airsoft without feeling they need to fork out a fortune first.
No dont like that one. To start with who decides what is a community game? Also means everyone has to cross referance between sections to decide what events to attend and even find a free space for organising.
Perhaps Craig's Idea of limiting organisers to one event a year (at least on the forum - everyone is free to advertise games elsewhere) would help diversity and eliminate the "squeeze" game organisers are feeling this year. However it has been the case in the past running a second event has filled a cancellation or gaping hole. I want a regular spread of differant games throughout the year I can attend.
One point to consider is that the Fireball games have a very loyal following and not just from their club members but from the wider WW2 airsoft community, they often have to turn people away, so it seems many prefer Grey squirrels.
People need to be encouraged to go to games with a differant style, not discouraged from attending more mainstream events.
Once again I side with your even-handed post Tim!
It is impossible to categorise games - Cost? Kit level requirement? Physicality? Geographical region? Ammo limit? Firearm restriction? The list goes on.
What I'm absolutely NOT going to do is restrict forum advertising to "mates" or "games I like to play" or "games I think other players should play". For the record, as far as I can recall, there was only one group who expressed an intention to run a game this year but they didn't come up with any proposal. So, everyone catered for pretty much, one way or another.
Perhaps counter intuitively, no end of Gunman games have pulled over the years - something is wrong there (hint, poor and confusing marketing ). The worst of pulled games is that players are robbed of a monthly game as it is usually impossible for others to leap into the breach at short notice.
I think there are different types of games, some will appeal to some and some won't , and as soon as you try to be different it will be harder as your player/squirrel pool will be smaller , for example i like the sound of Wladek rifle early war game and will try it out in fact will be buying a whole new loadout for it. will i like it i don't know but i am confident i will, it fits in with my 1 day only that i can do and within travel distance, But say Hut9 i just know that would not be for me ,i am 100% sure those that go etc will love it to bits and wish it all the best but i only have so much free time, i may get to play once a month , twice if i am lucky and that includes modern and nam as well.
also i was quoted recently "that what folks like us are doing is what cia did 8 -9 years ago" which i assume is true and why the player who has been around the ww2 scene that long etc would not be interested and moved on in there eyes, but Myself and many others have not been around it that long and done all those, so thats what floats my boat so to speak now , maybe in 5 years i will be saying the same thing.
If we have angered Wladek etc then i am sorry we did not mean to come and upset folks in fact quite the opposite, we just hoped to add games to the calendar that ran and folks had a good time at, but will take it all onboard and maybe 2015 will be a lot smoother with all but all scenes need some diversity to appeal to all the squirrels and players.
and i hope i am a ....
How about making all the dates which people propose avaliable for all to see on the forum?
I have been watching this conversation for the few days it has been running and up to now didn't feel that there was anything I could contribute but there are statements being made now that I feel I must add my opinion.
The matter of limiting each organiser to one game a year. Wont this just bring about in fighting for dates between the groups of organisers even more because face it who wants to be the ones to try and run games in the traditional difficult months of Jan/Dec/and to some extent summer school holiday times where numbers are always tricky.
With regard the groups that are putting on what has been tagged as the entry level games and their apparent taking of dates. Did any of these guys have access to the organisers section to see what people were planning? As if I didnt know the section was there I would look at the calender that on the main access forum see months where no game has been confirmed and added and go right then I will host my game then.
Maybe rather than a bit of in fighting and blame the answer is to actively have a transparent calender that everyone can see that has full details of confirmed and proposed dates or maybe have an active member of the Forum who is the first point of consultation for free dates. in fact maybe we need a group of individuals from all sections of the members of the forum to work together in some kind of committee roll to help with the organisation of our calender and active promotion of our genre of airsoft.
I hope that the genre does not fragment and splinter but without everyone pulling together and pushing forward with a common goal then i fear thats what is likely to happen. And I know that I am not the most regular attendee of games but i do what i can and i will make no excuse for anything else.
