legal question re. VCRA

Give it a go then put the question to the judge (or ask your solicitor to do it for you )

Your reasoning on the face of it is logical though you might check on the how the law regards the meaning of 'selling'. If as a business I swapped goods with another business do you think I would not have to put the transaction through the books and pay VAT on the deal?

Hi, David,
Whilst I agree with your `business` point, I am not in business so I don`t think your analogy would apply. All laws are very `wording` specific, if a police officer gets one word wrong in a case file then the case often will get thrown out of court on a `technicality`.
The wording in section 36 ofthe `act` says it is illegal to Import/ Manufacture or sell. Those are the words used. Exchange like for like is not mentioned, therefore is it exempt, ??.
I would really like to know from a legal eagle out there. Obvoiusly my interpretation and yours are merely supposition, are they not.???.
I already legally own airsoft guns bought prior to the ban, so why can I not exchange one for another without being criminalised.???
flatrajectory.

As I say, test your theory in court - it's the only way to be sure!

My business point was an illustration of how words are interpeted in court as case law. I'm sure someone tried to be clever and tested the theory in court and Customs & Excise won out!

I am not a legal eagle, that's for sure, but Acts are usually worded in this way - they can't descibe or define every event, but the intent of the Act is clear enough.

BTW, I'm pretty sure selling doesn't have involve a cash transaction ...

I think as airsofters, who have a fragile enough defence to continue to buy airsoft weapons, then relying on a technicality or wording to continue our right to use this defence is not in our best interests. the law is less than six months old, there have been no test cases however there is a route to maintain our defence.
If you want to sell or swap RIFS , then go to a site, play the required games, get the site to register you as an airsofter . You then qualify for the defence and keep it all within the proscriptions of the VCR.
Anything else is potential risking the defence and continuation of the hobby.

old`un,
I agree entirely that no one should jeapordise the sport. I would just like to know `what if`.
Personaly, due to my job, I can never fulfill the obligation for a defense by joining a site and getting myself registered on the UKARA database as I cannot attend often enough to comply with the requirement. Incedentally, I don`t remember reading in the `bill`, the requirement to skirmish 3 times in two months to obtain UKARA registration but I am told that is what anyone must do to obtain the correct exemption. ???.
Keep the debate going chaps.
flatrajectory.

That '3 in not less than 2 months' forms part of the notes to the Act that is considered by authorities when considering valid defences.

Old 'Un is right of course - it is simple to get your defence, just some time, cash and commitment.

If you have none of those then you are right, you can't be sold RIF's - the government doesn't want you to have them!

Not fair? Irrational? Farcical?
Yup!

And to think that our forebears gave their lives in combat so that we could live in a free society, makes me seething , it does.
Which is why you must continue with ww2 airsoft, so that we don`t forget.

I would still like to know how we stand regarding the exchange of airsoft guns though.??

I love a good debate.
Night, night chums. Got to be up at the crack of dawn to help some poor motorists.
flatrajectory

I would still like to know how we stand regarding the exchange of airsoft guns though.??

Exactly the same as if paying for them, basically. both parties would need the specific defense, as legally, they're *both* obtaining an airsoft weapon.

Even if you were purely giving it away, the recipient would still need the legal defense in order to take it off your hands...

I'm not a legal eagle but am reasonably confident that -

1. It is perfectly legal to give someone else a RIF as a gift.

2. Swapping is payment in kind and therefore a sale and thus illegal.

1. It is perfectly legal to give someone else a RIF as a gift.

I'm probably being pedantic but isn't it illegal to gift a RIF to a minor?

Excellent, a thread neatly topped and tailed, thanks Tim.

old`un,
I agree entirely that no one should jeapordise the sport. I would just like to know `what if`.
Personaly, due to my job, I can never fulfill the obligation for a defense by joining a site and getting myself registered on the UKARA database as I cannot attend often enough to comply with the requirement. Incedentally, I don`t remember reading in the `bill`, the requirement to skirmish 3 times in two months to obtain UKARA registration but I am told that is what anyone must do to obtain the correct exemption. ???.
Keep the debate going chaps.
flatrajectory.

Just to clarify it's not 3 times in 2 months it's 3 times in not less than 2 months, which in english means that the 3 games must be spread over 2 or more months, I noticed in another thread that you said you may only be able to make 3 games in a year as that's over 2 months it should qualify.

Also you've said that your problem is working during the weekend, well if you look around you'll find there are a number of sites that run games during the week, if I get a chance I'll see if I can find out which ones.

1. It is perfectly legal to give someone else a RIF as a gift.

I'm probably being pedantic but isn't it illegal to gift a RIF to a minor?

No it's not.

You can gift them a RIF or an IF. It's good for yougsters, if they have parents that skirmish they can be gifted a RIF or if their parents don't skirmish they can be gifted an IF. Under the airsoft defence, if they are a bona fide skirmisher they can still manufacture a RIF (paint a 2 tone black), I run a junior membership for exactly that reason.

Thanks for that Tim - most appreciated.

Hi chaps,
Thank you all for your input on this one. In my humble ,logical mind I thought that to `sell` something money had to be involved. Obviously I was mistaken.
I know that I can sell an airsoft as long as it is to a registerd skirmisher. However, how do I confirm this, as the `UKARA` database is only accesible to retailers.??? .
Also, `old`un` clarifies another mistake by saying that One has to attend a skirmish 3 times in `over` two months NOT within two months.
If I can attend 3 of your ww2 events in 12 months does this count as a defense or, is it that I have to join another type of skirmish site and turn up there 3 times in 12 months.???
Sorry for being so thick but ,as I have said ,I am not ( YET ) a skirmisher. I would only really be interested in `ww2` based events.
flatrajectory.

You'd have to turn up three times at the same site.

Unfortunately we run games at many different sites during the year...

You may have to go to a few open days to make up the number of events at a single site.

My advice would be , find a local site , hire a gun , play 3 games as open days , get registered and then come to the WWII events. If nothing else it will give you some experience of airsofting , in terms of gameplay, how things work etc . It would also allow you to buy the weapons you want for WWII . Bear in mind though that you don't have to be registered to play , only to buy guns, and that in WWII games any period weapon is ok for any side under the guise of captured weapon .

People seem to say WWII events are .....um..... better than a lot of open days , (I couldn't possbily comment ) , this is partly because most of the players are experienced and play in a very mature sportsmanlike manner . I can hand on heart say we've not experienced bad play at any of our games , and for that reason tend to run with no marshalls .

Sadly if you stick to WWII alone you'll struggle to do the games required to get on the database , as as Yith points out they tend to wander from site to site.

A lmap of sites is here
http://www.airsoftmap.co.uk/

Chaps,
Once again many thanks for this invaluable information. I will persivere . ( my spelling is crap).

flatrajectory