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lone wolfing? Good skills or bad drills?

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Sgt.Heide
(@sgt-heide)
Illustrious Member

Well how about a 'sniper' training day?

I've run one in the past, with the original idea being to run further ones to build on knowledge gained but, time, sites and numbers were the big factor. It's doubly difficult within airsoft limitations, given the nature of the weapons and the short distances involved (eg, on real sniper op's, I was hardly ever ever closer to an enemy than 500 metres and, 8 out of 10 times, concealed in a proper hide!). With airsoft, you're MUCH closer to your "enemy" and, the skillset required isn't just a sniping one, there's an awful lot of depth of knowledge required to be effective, which is prolonged and difficult to teach (a reason why most real snipers aren't even allowed on the course until they're junior NCO's).

Within WW2, only the Russians made real, large scale use of snipers. Within other armies, they were far less common. Don't confuse the lone fanatic, who was just out to kill someone, with a proper sniper (the German in the tower, or the Jap in the tree spring to mind).

However, I digress!



When I want your opinion - I'll tell you what it is!

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Posted : 20/11/2012 12:16 am




Universal Gunner
(@universal-gunner)
Reputable Member

Just want to emphasise this, heavily. I've had guys almost apologising for getting lost now. There's no need, what with an unfamiliar site, and the fog of war, it's to be expected, not an issue, and it's not what we're talking about here, so no need to apologise! :D

I think the point about lone wolfing is it can be on your own or in a group; it is an attitude which ignores what the actual event is trying to represent. If everyone else is getting it then those who don't and just swan about ignoring the rules or spirit either for their own ego or just to have a laugh with their mates look, to put it politely, self indulgent.

I don't see a problem with a couple of people detached from their unit then participating in some impromptu escape and evasion to try and get back to their unit or CP but they shouldn't be actively engaging the enemy. They wouldn't have done in reality why should they in airsoft. Return fire seems OK although surrender would have been far more likely. We as engineers were sat at CP6 when another unit came through and they were all standing around chatting, no watch being made and I confess we were not at our most vigilent either when we all got attacked by two lost souls. They were promptly despatched. Why though? They had no chance of taking the CP and are now dead and so wandering around as the rather unsatisfactory "dead men walking" trying to find a friendly CP. Was the 10 seconds of trigger time really that much better than the sense of achievement they would have felt if they had managed to succesfully make their way to that friendly CP. Each to their own.

Nor do I necessarily have a problem with small reconnaissance teams but they again should be gathering intelligence not engaging the enemy. If there have to be snipers then yes I think they should be given specific targets. Pondering on the idea of it limiting the command ability if the CO is hit may be that should be for the shorter of 15 minutes or the time it takes the sniper to be hunted down thereby giving little tactical benefit to crap snipers.










I have a small skewer hidden in the collar of my jumping jacket, and a razorblade in my gaiter, as well as my knife.

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Posted : 20/11/2012 12:21 am




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

Well how about a 'sniper' training day?
And I would also like to add that i know how frustrating sniper wannabes are, as my friend, who when i was very dedicated to namsoft, said he would do airsoft with me if we could get ww2 uniforms, almost a year down the line i have completed my Brit kit including a weapon whilst he is still trying to decide between German officer or sniper, being an avid player of the game sniper elite.
I do on the other hand understand that a sniper is more useful if they don't fire a single shot and gather loads of intel instead of headshotting every enemy they see. So yeah maybe a 'sniper' training day wouldn't go a miss?

As Pete says he's done training days before (and very good ones to boot) but you have a limited amount of players, an even more limited amount of skilled instructors (while many of us can teach basic military skills, sniper skills are very rare). It's a lot of expense booking a site, paying the owner the fee, making training aids and the like if you've got four people there.

If your mate is in a quandry what to do tell him it's pretty pointless getting officer kit unless he's planning on running games. There are far too many officers wandering around and not enough 'soldiers'. It also looks daft if you're decked out as a general as the squad leader will usually be trusted and experienced players badged up as NCOs!

No one is 'ridiculing' lone wolf players, we're debating whether it is appropriate for the genre. You wouldnt go to a wildwest event and complain you couldnt be in a rifle section would you... thats a game designed around individuals (as are open days) whereas 'lone wolf' play rarely adds anything to a WWII event and nearly always causes bad feeling among the majority of players on both sides.




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Topic starter Posted : 20/11/2012 12:33 am




bosh
 bosh
(@bosh)
Estimable Member

the sniper team is a modern thing! a guy with half a camo net round him.
what good recon can they do they have no radio! no one to medic them!
And in my experiace the lone wolf is much more likely to go all teflon!
after spending half an hour getting to a good spot with a long walk back to regen.
My brother used his scoped K98 at the weekend but as a sharpe shooter with the squad,
his extra range and skills far more use to the rest of squad than he would have been as a lone wolf doing his own thing. so use your sniper skills with your squad and dress the same as evey one else

[img]

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Posted : 20/11/2012 6:19 am




Moss
 Moss
(@moss)
Prominent Member

whereas 'lone wolf' play rarely adds anything to a WWII event and nearly always causes bad feeling among the majority of players on both sides.

Well there's no point in debating if you have your answer.

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Posted : 20/11/2012 8:25 am




MartinR
(@martinr)
Famed Member

I think Joshs idea of a specific 'sniper' role was a good one, however iirc it was supposed to be 100 rounds, on your own, no regen and with a specific task. The section marksman role was quite different.

I have no problem at all with people getting seperated from their units and trying to get back, we've all been there and it usually happens when an extended line gets overrun by the enemy and you are out on a flank or similar.

That is not the same as someone sneaking around on their own,then popping out of a bush and loosing off a whole mag with a great big grin on their face then buggering off again. That is, in that wonderful CiA term, 'being a cock', in the context of a WW2 game anyway. The term also covers 'snipers' who like to stand up in plain view in the middle of a field taking pot shots with their gas rifles at all and sundry. At least lie down.....

Now, I can imagine some sorts of game where possibly people are tasked to operate in small groups - some sort of special forces ops or whatever, however it is down to the organisers and the scenario. Probably not very appropriate in a battle game though, unless it is a special task (like a tank killer squad).

Cheers
Martin

"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" Helmuth von Moltke
Toys: AGM MP40, Cyma M1A1, TM M14/G43/SVT40, TM VSR/K98, SnS No. 4, ASG Sten, Ppsh.

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Posted : 20/11/2012 9:01 am




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

whereas 'lone wolf' play rarely adds anything to a WWII event and nearly always causes bad feeling among the majority of players on both sides.

Well there's no point in debating if you have your answer.

Well perhaps i should have added the blindingly obvious prefix that 'this is my opinion'

But looking at the two threads this is discussed on it would seem that i'm apparently voicing the same opinion as the vast majority of other players.




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Topic starter Posted : 20/11/2012 9:23 am




(@wladek)
Famed Member

whereas 'lone wolf' play rarely adds anything to a WWII event and nearly always causes bad feeling among the majority of players on both sides.

Well there's no point in debating if you have your answer.

Well perhaps i should have added the blindingly obvious prefix that 'this is my opinion'

But looking at the two threads this is discussed on it would seem that i'm apparently voicing the same opinion as the vast majority of other players.

You should have started with 'My 2 pence worth' ;)

But in fact you do have the answer, there is no debate here.

If there is a roles for the 'guerilla' or Sniper teams then whoever is telling the story and running the event will make such positions available and let people know. Otherwise it only ever adds bad feeling for the opposition, for the organiser and even for their own side.

however the 'lone wolf' is not actually like either of those roles, it is another beast. And when we are referring to lone wolves we are not referring to an organised role, but some guy who wanders off to do his own thing.

There is, unless some kind of confusion reigns, absolutely, totally, utterly, beyond any doubt, no place for that in any properly organised WWII game.

At all.

Ever.

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Posted : 20/11/2012 9:47 am




HeadShot
(@headshot)
Illustrious Member

No one is 'ridiculing' lone wolf players

I am. They're useless in a scenario that isn't specifically created to support that role.* Also, I'd like to rename the pejorative term. 'Lone Wolf' adds some credence to the solitary hunter nature of the predator. Could we perhaps say 'Lone Walt' instead?

*A scenario that CiA may be forming plans for...though not necessarily how you might expect!



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Posted : 20/11/2012 9:57 am




(@mattywheels)
Noble Member

I think that it's important to divide the roles of 1) The sniper who's assigned the role of sneaking off and operating alone, with 2) The Cock who decides working within a team and obeying a very basic command structure isnt for them and decides to go off on their own! Alot of good folk have already put the case against these players alot more eloquently than I'm able to, but I thinks its fortunate that we are able to say that we very rarely see this behavior in WWII airsoft games. There is a large 'open day' airsoft scene out there, I suggest that if people want to play by their own rules, that's where they do it! :evil:

On to snipers, I think very few people would be prepared to truly play as a sniper for a weekend - lying in a bush all day and maybe only firing one shot when they get the opportunity. I've never played as a sniper (no interest in it), but surely the range of an airsoft sniper rifle is not sufficient to take an accurate shoot and escape undetected???

I think we need more games that focus on players trying to survive the engagement, as all real soldiers would try and do as there's no 're-spawn' in real life! Eagle's over the Rhine in September tried to achieve this by offering incentives to stay alive - something that would completely be at a detriment to the lone wolves.

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Posted : 20/11/2012 10:20 am




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

No one is 'ridiculing' lone wolf players

I am. . Could we perhaps say 'Lone Walt' instead?

Only is you're happy to be part of a group walt?

I think you're right though the term itself makes it sound legitimate.

Perhaps we should call them 'deserters' or 'stragglers' :)




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Topic starter Posted : 20/11/2012 10:25 am




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

I think we need more games that focus on players trying to survive the engagement, as all real soldiers would try and do as there's no 're-spawn' in real life! Eagle's over the Rhine in September tried to achieve this by offering incentives to stay alive - something that would completely be at a detriment to the lone wolves.

Pretty much every PBI game which we used the 'combat mission' system did that.

Rather than endless 'lives' and trudging back and forth to regens (with the associated 'dead mans intel' you pick up) we ran scenarios of 30-60 minutes each. You had one life, one bandage then you were dead and waited out til the next mission.

It made people play very cautiously, it also meant that if you had stumbled into a hidden ambush you couldnt either warn your mates after regen or (un) consciously avoid it when returning.

On the flip side it made a minority of players more reluctant to take hits.

The real downside is that its very hard to do on anything but small sites as after each mission you need to re-organise both forces in new starting locations.

Other organisers like AGS and Wladek have used similar systmes too in the past but more fluidly with units fighting and when taken out moving to a new staging area or falling back to one and then waiting til everyone is out before moving on to the next objective.

It's not everyones cup of tea, its questionable whether you lose more game time regennning or if you lose more moving blocks of troops about to new forming up points.

The only real advantage in my eyes over regens is that it makes you very wary of dying, recconaisance is far more useful and you also give players an incentive to stay on the field 'dead' or 'mortally wounded' as you can watch the rest of the engagement as a spectator while adding 'set dressing'. You tend to know there might be an enemy position ahead if you patrol round a corner and see a field of 'bodies' in front of a suspicious looking clump of bushes ! :)

Again as i say, doesnt work for big games as well.




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Topic starter Posted : 20/11/2012 10:33 am




Simon
(@simon)
Estimable Member

the ridge, as mentioned earlier, highlighted for me what WW2 airsoft is all about. We stood in our designated area and watched as countless allied troops crossed the road and moved towards the zug on our left flank, we hear the engagments, we watched the vehicles moving away from us (never once coming anywhere near our lovely vehicle ambush point). BUT we stayed put, we followed our orders (we had a great squad leader by the way) and for the best part of 2hours we did nothing but watch. then contact, a little bit of a skirmish, the allies pulled back, got re-enforced and then two squads hit us - brief but great engagement, we didnt even get the chance to withdraw, then we all lay around dead and had some banter with the allies......awesome.

back to the CP get our new orders and off we went again.

if it had been an open day we would have charged towards the allies crossing the road, pelted each other with thousands of BB's then all disappeared in different directions towards the respawn and spent the rest of the day looking for our next blastfest, or all returned to the same point to blast away again.

both offer different thrills, both are fun in my mind, but you must match your conduct and expectations to the event you are attending.

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Posted : 20/11/2012 11:56 am




HeadShot
(@headshot)
Illustrious Member

Lone wolfing: It's like turning up to an orgy and having a wank in the toilets.



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Posted : 20/11/2012 12:20 pm




(@lardassmonkey)
Famed Member

It is very dependant upon the event but if it fits the scenario then playing alone as a sniper is absolutely fine with me. However that means the organisers know about it in advance so the game is geared to include them; providing them with a proper role, objectives, rule set and it is clear to all sides who they are so other players don't get upset thinking they are off breaking the rules. As others have said the role would have to be very restrictive with only certain target that could be hit, very limited ammo (50 rounds maximum I'd say), no bandages, and a very long regen (if applicable) to ensure only those who are totally committed to the role even consider it.

Deciding halfway through and event that you're bored of what you're doing and want to play hero however is totally not on. Especially if you opt to do it without telling any of the organisers about it. If you're doing that i really have to question why you bothered to go to an even at all. You're not fighting in a team so it doesn't matter who is around you or what they look like, your enemy are nothing but targets to get 'kills' and you're not forming part of the organisational structure/gameplan and won't know what is going on around you so are entirely missing the point of the event. In which case you may as well be at an open day for all the difference it makes.

Lone wolfing: It's like turning up to an orgy and having a wank in the toilets.

Very fitting. :rofl: I'd agree that the term 'lone wolf' gives the wrong image entirely, billy no mates is better.

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Posted : 20/11/2012 1:20 pm




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

But do you not see the point here.

What you want, and i'm not discussing that right now, *wasnt* part of the rules of the event. The rules said, 'on your own and tasked' or 'stay as a squad'.

Surely turning up and just playing however you like is out of order?

*especially* when that 'two man team' style is contrary to the nature of the event, the game rules and what everyone else is playing by?




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Topic starter Posted : 20/11/2012 1:33 pm




(@mattywheels)
Noble Member

I don't think asking players to stay in their squad is considered hard core, hard core would be:

only being able to eat food that is wrapped in period specific containers;
not being able to wear contemporary footwear or insisting that all players 'badge up' to resemble an exact unit;
performing hours of sentry duty with nothing happening (aka real army life!);
etc, etc, etc

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Posted : 20/11/2012 1:42 pm




Universal Gunner
(@universal-gunner)
Reputable Member

As I think I said I don't believe lone walting is necessarily governed by the number of people. So perhaps the lone part needs to be changed too! Whole squads can seem to behave in a way which seems dependent on whether they feel like doing something rather than what the event or situation requires.










I have a small skewer hidden in the collar of my jumping jacket, and a razorblade in my gaiter, as well as my knife.

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Posted : 20/11/2012 1:46 pm




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

I still cant help but feel you're not playing the same game everyone else was :)

i mean given that 'desertion' (as we'll call it now) meant the allies accused us of cheating, going out of bounds and not playing by the rules at time and that everyone else seems to be saying 'its a bit naff really' tends to make me feel that the majority of players dont appreciate it.

I got the impression that when reduced to two you were not pulling back to your squad flag as per the game rules but carrying on regardless? If i've got that wrong i apologise.

The point about the sniper being alone or in a squad is that it makes him vulnerable if alone but more flexible, the reverse if in a squad as a marksman,

You and your mate bimbling about just taking pot shots at anything as a 'sniper team' just opens it up to anyone choosing to wander around in pairs as a 'recce team' 'tank hunter team' etc etc and before we know it we just have a SISK.

When the organisers need a small recce/sniper/tank hunter team its arranged between the refs and sorted... players taking it on themselves to do it wrecks the game plan and balance.

I appreciate its not how you want to play but now you know the rules would you still play as a two?

Edit: We also try and keep radios to a minimum in WWII airsoft as they would have been in the real war, radios were rarely more than 1 per platoon so we already have far too many but its still hard to control and be aware where everyone is. when you break off and 'do your own thing' and dont rally with your squad i have *no idea* where you are, i might need those extra two men, or that accurised rifle to support a big attack but instead you're ambushing a tea party... sod all use to me when i need a radio truck taking out!

I respect it's not your idea of the WWII experience but please respect you 'doing your own thing' impacted negatively on other players, it also made my job harder as i had to calm down people who thought you were cheating etc. So all i ask is that at any events in future where i'm OCing the germans would you mind terribly sticking to the rules/plan/spirit of the game?




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Topic starter Posted : 20/11/2012 1:47 pm




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

Erm, what you term the 'super hardcore' were the majority at one of the most inclusive and 'kit light' events run.

I think you'd have been horrifed had you tried this at a CIA game or a PBI game tbh

Perhaps a poll would be revealing. I mean you seem to be the only person on this thread that thinks it's ok to just go off and ignore the structure.




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Topic starter Posted : 20/11/2012 1:54 pm




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