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lone wolfing? Good skills or bad drills?

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Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

taking this off an event specific forum and opening it up to the larger player base....

Is lone wofling cool?

By this i mean wandering off from your squad, flanking in extremes, waiting behind deployments of sections to gun them down from behind etc.

Personally this feels very 'open day' to me. For me it's frustrating in a squad based genre to have players just want to 'get kills' but perhaps i'm alone in this or being a stick in the mud.

it does seem that most games these days have command structures and objecives for *units* to do and it's not about individual play, but is this fair?

So do you approve of lone wolf players or would you rather have 'small unit actions'?




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Topic starter Posted : 19/11/2012 8:51 pm




(@komrade)
Honorable Member

I would approve of it (in fact i am considering doing so depending on other people's reaction) if the 'lone wolf' was a sniper tasked with eliminating only the OC of the enemy side. I think they should also show constraint in that they shouldn't engage anyone other than this person, and should rely on fieldcraft and stealth to achieve this rather than killing their way through the enemy team to get to their target. Ideally the sniper should not be seen by any of the enemy team at any point, even the target should only see a BB hit them out of nowhere. The 'lone wolf' could also help by recce-ing and radioing back enemy troop movements, but I think at no point should they attack a general unit of the enemy.

I was considering doing this at my next event whenever that may be, with the organiser's permission, but this depends on what I see people think about it. If they feel it would actually detract from their game having a lone wolf going around then I will not do it.

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Posted : 19/11/2012 9:10 pm




cjw957
(@cjw957)
Famed Member

with regard to the game this sprung from , i was only there on the Saturday and i don't think i really accounted this i saw a cpl of 3s but there could well have been more , if say one side was pushing back the other and they were trying to get back and reform a couple of folks sent to hold the line until they die i seem as ok for the greater good etc but in this instance i think its was on about 2s roaming off and doing everything a squad was then i think it was a big no , there was rules for the lone sniper if they played it as a sniper and not just a single player trying to gank a squad etc.

The one thing i loved about this game was the rule you needed 3 players from a squad to advance etc , i liked having to pull back when numbers were low or wait at a cp waiting for mates to get us etc , really held up one of our attacks on some Germans who had the high ground and greater numbers than we thought and were led to believe, and was one of the highlights of the day when we finally overcame them.




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Posted : 19/11/2012 9:16 pm




Moss
 Moss
(@moss)
Prominent Member

Realistically, a lone sniper is Hollywood myth as snipers 'hunt' in two's so maybe if a pair of wolves went out and did what Komrade described it would possibly be more accepted?

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Posted : 19/11/2012 9:19 pm




(@prideofengland)
Noble Member

Sorry did not notice the new thread just posted this on the other one
"I think this sniper team was trying to fulfil the new sniper role of Josh's amended rules and came in for some criticism for it? so I think to suggest they were trying to free range in an open day sort of way is perhaps a bit harsh. Now Im not personally into the sniper role as I enjoy being part of a squad far more but if the role is allowed for people will use it as it was really a new role there may have been some confusion. Just out of interest did German command give the sniper objectives, area's to operate in and priority targets to take out or were they just left to their own devices?"

Basically if a role is created people will use it and in a larger game yes there is a role for the occasional sniper, but still operating under the directive of high command not freelancing wherever they want :good:

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Posted : 19/11/2012 9:20 pm




Sgt.Heide
(@sgt-heide)
Illustrious Member

Totally "open day", totally gay.

I've come across very few airsofters with the skills or aptitude to be a proper "sniper" type player. The games I've been to that involved lone wolfing have pissed me off to the point that I've almost walked off. Lone wolfing and open day style play are the reasons why I won't go to some WW2 games and the reason why I totally shun virtually all other periods these days. It's a selfish style of play that disrespects the organisers and the other players. Throw in a bit of non hit taking and, you've got a really shit game. Lone wolves think they're being cool but, in reality, everyone else thinks they're being a dick.

If only players got it into their heads that, in a WW2 game, they're part of a wider front in the bigger picture. Just because there's 20, 40 or a 100 players on a site, it doesn't mean that's how many were at the real battle. Each WW2 airsoft game is a microcosm of the real event, where the attention is focussed on a particular part of the line at a set time. People need to just imagine that there are other platoons, companies, battalions and divisions on their left and right flanks, as there would have been for real. In reality, you couldn't take your weedy, insignificant 8 man squad on a mile long excursion to get behind the enemy to get a few kills, you almost certainly couldn't do it alone, with enemy troops, armour, artillery and airpower all waiting to get you.

For normal WW2 infantry battles or "battle experiences" I think that lonewolfing has no place whatsoever. There can be exceptions but, these must be specified by the organisers, not by a single player going off task.

For those who want to do it outside of the game or the rules, I say "piss off back to Stirling games". Yes, I am opinionated and bolshy but, I don't give a toss, as I came to WW2 to escape open day play and, will defend my hobby against going down that slippery slope.



When I want your opinion - I'll tell you what it is!

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Posted : 19/11/2012 9:25 pm




(@bigkie)
Prominent Member

Think that the players who will drop off froma squad to do the loaner routine is not in fitting with the overall game mechanic of the squad. If the individual wants to have a role such as this then it needs to have a really tight guidance. Think the role of sniper can include gathering tatical information/taking out of specific targets but dont realy think in an airsoft world the idea of a sniper up in a bell tower popping off multiple targets is really viable but that of course all depends on the skill level and ability of the player as there are instances where players who take this role have niether but just one of the 'all the gear no idea crowd'
and sorry if repeating but more posts since i started typing :giggle:

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Posted : 19/11/2012 9:32 pm




(@prideofengland)
Noble Member

At this particular game causing the debate the sniper role was allowed for and in at least one case posted on the "how was it for you" section produced some positive feedback from a section that had to sweep the area indicating it had added to their experience:

I was one of the yanks you killed on that day. We had about 13 men looking for you. We split up into smaller squads to try and dig you out. We had taken out your "spotter" and I started to advance towards him body with the BAR but with the woods being so dark I couldnt see you. You then shot me straight dead on the chest. I collapsed backwards, shouting for a medic. At this point I didn't know how far away you were still but I hope you saw me fall and heard my screams and got the satisfaction of the kill. I don't know a great deal of how much more you saw because your attention must of been on the other chaps flanking you but 2 squad mates (johnny and bear) ran into the woods, grabbed my BAR and literally dragged me to safety. I hope you saw that too as it must of looked great from your end. And yes I was the one that looked like I shit myself on the debrief on the second day.

Stu

Correct me if Im wrong, for I admit I perhaps dont know the full story behind this, but wasnt this a case of a role was created and no direction given from either the organiser or the command staff how it should be fulfilled and fit into the game?

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Posted : 19/11/2012 9:40 pm




(@wladek)
Famed Member

Totally "open day"

For normal WW2 infantry battles or "battle experiences" I think that lonewolfing has no place whatsoever. There can be exceptions but, these must be specified by the organisers, not by a single player going off task.

For those who want to do it outside of the game or the rules, I say "piss off back to Stirling games". Yes, I am opinionated and bolshy but, I don't give a toss, as I came to WW2 to escape open day play and, will defend my hobby against going down that slippery slope.

pretty much sums it up.

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Posted : 19/11/2012 9:43 pm




dieselmonkey
(@dieselmonkey)
Noble Member

Correct me if Im wrong, for I admit I perhaps dont know the full story behind this, but wasnt this a case of a role was created and no direction given from either the organiser or the command staff how it should be fulfilled and fit into the game?

Partially yes, but equally, as 2IC for the Axis forces, I wasn't aware that anyone on our side had decided to take up the option until almost the end of sunday.

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Posted : 19/11/2012 9:44 pm




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

Exactly

I asked all the axis players at the start of the event if they were happy with their grouping

No one said 'i'm a sniper i need to be independent' as the rules allowed

(btw two man sniper teams are very much a late war UK thing and post war in other armies. German snipers tended to work alone).

i like Komrades idea of the sniper being tasked to kill only the OC if the enemy and if hit this could prevent the oc from giving orders for say 15 minutes, may be 30?

I cant realisitically go around and ask every player 'how would you like to play today' and build a plan around 50 unique desires. The whole point i thought is that you subject yourself to 'control' in order to get the experience of being in a small battle? The experience you CANT get anywhere else in airsoft?

And Petes right... while behind the allied CP at gothic line there was the safe zone, in reality you'd have rear area security troops (thats what MPs do folks... they dont run around on the front line), battalions waiting to move up and *thousands* of support troops. You wouldnt last long as a small group trying to infiltrate thought a division!

My personal feeling is that lone wolfing is great.... at open days. I dont think it has any place in themed WWII or cold war games. All it ever seems to do is piss off everyone on one side and many on your own side. The only person who has a good time of it is the lone wolf who is in their own private 'first person shooter' , everyone else may as well be an extra in their film.




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Topic starter Posted : 19/11/2012 10:26 pm




Moss
 Moss
(@moss)
Prominent Member

I can see how a lone sniper would work in certain situations, for example: you and your squad are advancing through an urban environment, suddenly one of your squad members is hit, everybody drops to the ground looking for cover. Every time your squad tries to advance, your met with another well aimed shot that takes out another member of your squad. If this 'sniper' manages to hold your squad up for half an hour and contact their commander telling them that they have held up a squad and the where abouts of this squad so that a larger force can be given freedom of movement, has he/she not carried out their role both efficiently and realistically?
Please tell me how this does not keep in with the ww2 airsoft mentality? Are they not buying their team valuable time?

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Posted : 19/11/2012 10:50 pm




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

No one has said there is no place for a sniper or marksman role, in fact the rules currently allow *only* snipers to rove off independantly but with a task.

The issue is players just wandering around off mission, pulling massive 'flanker' manouvres and basically unrealistically 'ambushing' massive groups of players. Obviously in airsoft you're not in any danger of dying or being given a sever kicking before going to a POW camp so players think that sneaking round the back of the nemy line is worth it if they can take out 'x' ammount of enemy and secure some objectives even if they die later.

I cant imagin very many wwii citizen soldiers going 'dont worry general, i'll hide in an alley, wait til the 9th ss division trundles past, sneak past all the volkstrum units and kill hitler for you before teatime... what i'll be certainly killed? Oh dont worry about that sir it will be fun and the result will be worth it!"




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Topic starter Posted : 19/11/2012 10:55 pm




Sgt.Heide
(@sgt-heide)
Illustrious Member

I can see how a lone sniper would work in certain situations, for example: you and your squad are advancing through an urban environment, suddenly one of your squad members is hit, everybody drops to the ground looking for cover. Every time your squad tries to advance, your met with another well aimed shot that takes out another member of your squad. If this 'sniper' manages to hold your squad up for half an hour and contact their commander telling them that they have held up a squad and the where abouts of this squad so that a larger force can be given freedom of movement, has he/she not carried out their role both efficiently and realistically?
Please tell me how this does not keep in with the ww2 airsoft mentality? Are they not buying their team valuable time?

Only if it's part of the scenario. If you're playing out Stalingrad, for example, where snipers played a major part. If organisers want lone wolves or solitary snipers, they will ask for them, knowing that 99% of players aren't capable of fulfilling the role properly anyway.



When I want your opinion - I'll tell you what it is!

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Posted : 19/11/2012 10:59 pm




(@bedsnherts)
Famed Member

Lone wolfing isn't becoming accidentally isolated from your squad - we all know how easy it is to suddenly find yourself all alone, it's going out with the intention of completely ignoring everything that you've been told about and event, ignoring the game organiser, ignoring the CO, ignoring your squad leader and ignoring your "mates", just so you can go wandering around looking for trigger time.

If you only want to do open-day in dressy up, then go to an open day in dressy up and leave it at that.

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Posted : 19/11/2012 11:00 pm




dieselmonkey
(@dieselmonkey)
Noble Member

Lone wolfing isn't becoming accidentally isolated from your squad - we all know how easy it is to suddenly find yourself all alone

Just want to emphasise this, heavily. I've had guys almost apologising for getting lost now. There's no need, what with an unfamiliar site, and the fog of war, it's to be expected, not an issue, and it's not what we're talking about here, so no need to apologise! :D

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Posted : 19/11/2012 11:03 pm




Moss
 Moss
(@moss)
Prominent Member

Oh ok so there's no issue with 'snipers' holding up large groups of infantry as part of a larger operation, that's good because I always thought that that was the whole point of a sniper. But I can see how people buggering off and doing there own thing could really get on yer tits! But I do agree that unless the 'sniper' was following orders, they would have no place in any tactical military simulation. And I would also like to ask why, instead of ridiculing lone wolves, you dont just point them towards a good book about ww2 sniping tactics? And sgt heide, does that not mean 99 percent of airsoft players are incapable of fulfilling roles as soldiers anyway due to them never being trained as a soldier?

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Posted : 19/11/2012 11:12 pm




Sgt.Heide
(@sgt-heide)
Illustrious Member

And sgt heide, does that not mean 99 percent of airsoft players are incapable of fulfilling roles as soldiers anyway due to them never being trained as a soldier?

Good question and, I will bite on it. For many of them, the answer is "no" BUT ,they can try to ACT like soldiers, not just an airsofter in an expensive uniform. It's still very hard to get airsofters to advance under fire, to stay in formation and to follow instructions. For WW2 citizen soldiers, with their limited training, there was a system (not just the training) to get them to behave like soldiers, whereby, depending on what side they were on, they would be locked up, or even shot if they did not follow their orders. We, as organisers, can't enforce any of that on players, it's totally down to the individual to have it in his head as part of the role he's playing. Fortunately, within WW2 airsoft, players do seem to "get it" better than their open day/call of duty wannabe counterparts. There's always room for improvement though and, in the past, some of us have run training days to try to help players be just that bit more soldierly and, peer pressure also works wonders, as does some of the strong camraderie out there.

Edit - By the way, the role of a sniper is 99% observation, with very little shooting. In sniper training and in the sniper badge test, little emphasis is put on actual shooting. The theory is that the air, artillery or mortar strike that you call in is far more useful, as is the stream of up to date, quality intel that snipers pass back. Sure, harassing fire has it's value but, it's the best way to give your position away and get yourself slotted.



When I want your opinion - I'll tell you what it is!

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Posted : 19/11/2012 11:39 pm




Moss
 Moss
(@moss)
Prominent Member

Well how about a 'sniper' training day?
And I would also like to add that i know how frustrating sniper wannabes are, as my friend, who when i was very dedicated to namsoft, said he would do airsoft with me if we could get ww2 uniforms, almost a year down the line i have completed my Brit kit including a weapon whilst he is still trying to decide between German officer or sniper, being an avid player of the game sniper elite.
I do on the other hand understand that a sniper is more useful if they don't fire a single shot and gather loads of intel instead of headshotting every enemy they see. So yeah maybe a 'sniper' training day wouldn't go a miss?

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Posted : 20/11/2012 12:02 am




Simon
(@simon)
Estimable Member

While we (the Germans) in zug 3 held the ridge, a lone allied player pinned our right flank with some very good sniping, and getting a good few hits, we were unable to spot him, and unlike an open day the ammo restrictions prevented us from letting rip and blasting away and hoping for a lucky hit. This player greatly added to my enjoyment, as he allowed the rest of his squad to rush us and take the ridge ( never enjoyed getting beaten so much).

Now this player was not a lone wolf, but he was a sniper and he was working alone, but in a role which supported his squad. So there is a place for this type of role, but it's somewhere between the two points of view.

BUT, at the end of the day if a role isn't covered in the organisers briefing and scenario then you don't do it. If you can't play the role you want before of the game rules......tough titty, don't attend.

While the sgt,s view is, to use his words, bolshy, I must agree with his stand point on expectations, we know in advance what is expected, if we don't like it we simply don't attend.it's not about me, it's about us.

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Posted : 20/11/2012 12:07 am




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