The looks-like system

And finally , having listed a lot of WW2 guns that are now available is it time we gave thought to reducing the l'ooks like' list ?

It's a CiA decision really, although I think it's a good idea.

And finally , having listed a lot of WW2 guns that are now available is it time we gave thought to reducing the l'ooks like' list ?

It's a CiA decision really, although I think it's a good idea.

If CiA decide to do it... PBI will most certainly support it!

And finally , having listed a lot of WW2 guns that are now available is it time we gave thought to reducing the l'ooks like' list ?

It's a CiA decision really, although I think it's a good idea.

If CiA decide to do it... PBI will most certainly support it!

Sounds like now is the time - the idea was sound when introduced, but isn't really needed now. XVIII Corps would support the principal too.

An finally , having listed a lot of WW2 guns that are now available is it time we gave thought to reducing the l'ooks like' list ?

Those thoughts should include exceptions for non-UKARA, etc. registered players who already have pre-VCRA bought guns...

An finally , having listed a lot of WW2 guns that are now available is it time we gave thought to reducing the l'ooks like' list ?

Those thoughts should include exceptions for non-UKARA, etc. registered players who already have pre-VCRA bought guns...

Don't really see why, it's very easy to get UKARA membership, and if someone wants to 'try' a ww2 airsoft game, most of the time, people are happy to lend spare guns out.

Now there's a big enough scene, i think it's about the right time to move away from the boilersuit and AK options.

I dont think it would be a good idea to totally wipe out the boiler suit and scrimmed AK options, it's what encouraged me to try WW2 airsoft. I'm sure that like me, most people who go on to take up the hobby, go on and improve their kit. One of the best arguements I use to encourage new players is the look alike rule.
As for the next gun from Viva, I have to agree that infantrymen need rifles

i think it's about the right time to move away from the boilersuit and AK options.

And put off people like me who came here for the lack of stitch-counters...

Two things to bear in mind.
Its up to game organisers to choose the rules appropriate to the scenario and game style. There are lots of WW2 games being run and rules vary between them.
Secondly, please don't confuse the forum (which covers all of the WW2 airsoft scene from the most general to the most anal) with games.

The WW2 scene has a good degree of momentum now and some players have been doing it a long time - its only natural that they should want to get something more out of the genre. As long as there are games with minimal restrictions then new players will find plenty of opportunity to be involved.

The original CiA 'looks-like' rules are still there for any organiser to use but CiA games being small, focussed and reasonably historically accurate (one has to be pragmatic and inventive at times) are setting themselves apart from other organised games. Its not elitism or stitch-counting, its just that if you put hundreds of hours into organising games you should at least have the option of running games you want to play!

Frankly, I can't remember anyone turning up at a CiA game with an MP5, nor wearing a brown boiler suit so some points are rather academic. And three years on there are so many period guns available that looks-like rules are something of a relic. Anyhoo, they are still there for those organisers who want to adopt them.

By the way, for those who want to contribute to this thread (that took me ten minutes to hack from off-topicness elsewhere - cheers Old 'Un ) please do take the time to think about your points - it would be a great shame if it just ended up with a load of sniffy, rude or ill-considered replies that. I know you wont let me down!

We always have virtually the same players at all CiA games, with exceptions for family commitments/missed the booking/holidays, etc. I've never seen anyone wearing a boilersuit at a CiA game and the counts as weapons are becoming fewer and farther between (they're used more as backups these days). So, I think it's a natural progression to move away from lookalikes for weapons and uniforms. Everyone makes an effort with kit AND weapons. There are plenty of other games that have looser kit requirements for people to dip their toes in WW2 airsoft. With the variety of kit suppliers out there for every budget, I think it's time we raised the bar a bit and made CiA games the pinnacle of WW2 airsoft, not just in quality of games (which they already are) but in terms of authenticity of kit/weapons as well. There's plenty of threads on this forum to help people get it right.

And put off people like me who came here for the lack of stitch-counters...

To be honest, would you have turned up in a boilersuit, toting an MP5? I seriously doubt it. Noone is going to stitch count your kit, they'd be laughed off the site if they did and there's always someone with a spare weapon to loan out.

After having a think, the only lookalike guns that should be kept now would be bolt action sniper weapons. with the arrival of the MP44, the Ak is redundant. As for for kit, nothing to say really, its always been top class, stalhelm off to all.

i think it's about the right time to move away from the boilersuit and AK options.

And put off people like me who came here for the lack of stitch-counters...

i don't think it could really be classed as stitch-counting, though. When i did my first ww2 airsoft game, i just went out and bought a chinese German uniform off ebay, a few bits of insignia/webbing and an AGM mp40. Sure it wasn't spot on, but it was close enough, and cost less than a TM AEG in total.

i think. personally, as far as looks-like goes, we should now really limit it to ww2 guns, and the occasional wood-stocked sniper/M14 style guns, and a similar tightening of the uniform levels, though within reason. I mean, '49 pattern battledress is probably cheaper than an appropriate coloured boilersuit!

I tend to think things are not so bad as they are.
The level of kit is normally quite good even the AK still has a home for new people as a fake MP44, as said the MP5 as an MP40 has never even been seen at a game so why bother to change a rule when one has not turned up? Doing this may just stop a person from joining our group and then realising it is worth spending the money on improvements.

At UCAP it was so dark that the guns used didn’t matter so much as the only people that knew what they were was the person holding them.

At UCAP it was so dark that the guns used didn’t matter so much as the only people that knew what they were was the person holding them.

Oh I dunno... it was cool seeing 4 sten Mkii's on the brit side... I certainly noticed them!

There is an old saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

Not always applicable! We don't live in caves anymore, and (unless you're a tree hugging hippy) the motor vehicle is a vast improvement over the horse!

I can see both sides of the arguement - don't discourage people so that our ranks grow, but why should those who've put time and effort in have their 'imersion' spoilt by none WW2 weapons and kit? My view is scrap it, or at least tighten it up, there is sufficent kit that people are prepared to lend out to cope with the 'toe dippers'. I think many of the people who start out are like me - they want to do this because is different and gives something over and above modern, and if they're going to do it, they'll do it right! My intention, when I started, was to do it on the cheap and build up - it never happened and I had a full load out before my first game, but I always planned to have the right weapon from the start (after all, Airsoft is about realistic weapons!). When you consider how much people are willing to spend on modern weapons with all the ghey, blingy attachments they want to add, a Chinese WW2 clone isn't going to break the bank.

Honestly, if someone wants to do something they will find the money, whatever the climate or their situation. It always amazes me when people who say they don't have enough money to eat manage to find the cash to get full loadouts.

It's all a scale of commitment. If you want something enough to really take it seriously then you'll make the effort to get things right and spend the money or beg/borrow in order to sort it.

The person who wants to use an AK at a game may not be committed enough to keep going at it anyway.

Note, I can see your point, but the line does have to be drawn somewhere and I do think the time has come to move it a bit.

The way CiA and PBI games are going right now is smaller, more condensed games with higher kit. People need to be made aware that that is how things are going to stay. The organisers of both groups prefer that type of game.

If someone wants big, more open games then Gunman do them and others can start them as well.

Yes, as Yith says, and this is the biggy - there are plenty of WW2 games out there besides PBI and CiA: Gunman, X-Site, First and Only, The Hill, POW, EAG Worthing.
The more the better.
All will have different rules, for instance Gunman bans winding mags, but there is something for everyone - no one is excluded from the WW2 genre, its just that some games will require higher levels of commitment than others.

hmm I've been weighing it up and think I have a conclusion.

Do I think that at CIA games the looks-like rules should be tightened or scraped? Yes.

My first problem was that there are people who come to the game, and there will, I think, be more and more like this, who do not come from Airsoft but from re-enactment or just simply an interest in WWII. So for these people getting a gun can a be tricky, if not damn right impossible, until they get to become members of CIA and consequently AFRA - So I was originally on the 'keep the looks alike' side of the fence.

Then I thought, 'well that's all well and good, but those people would have trouble getting any gun and so surely it is a mute point' and I agreed with myself.

The looks alike gun rule obviously is to help regular airsofters 'cross' into WWII airsofting, a noble aim, but I do see Yith's points. My solution is to have a small stockpile of plastic Dboys rifle that will be loaned out to anyone without a WWII weapon. If your willing to not use your... Oh whatever's good, and use that for the day then you've probably got the right spirit for it.

Not sure about this.

Striving towards a greater level of accuracy is a good thing.
Making rules about it is a bad thing.

It all seems to have been fairly self-regulating up until now so I agree with the "If it ain't broke don't try and fix it" ethos. Raising barriers to entry (even if they are only percieved barriers rather than real ones) is going to hurt us in the long run.