Those 'exceptional' photos we all dread.....

I often think how my dear old Grandad would think of all this if he were alive? He spent his 18th birthday on the beaches of Dunkirk hiding beneath a piece of wriggly tin with half hisright bicep missing. Three boats bombed beneath him and eventually getting home on a paddle steamer! How can you reenact his experiences by dressing up and walking around a field in Southern England???

You can't... but you can tell people about it. And that's where the interaction comes in.

It's true it seems a lot of time that groups seem to miss out on the interaction bit, but by the same measure a lot do some excellent interaction.. For instance at the last event I was at I had at times a continuous flow of punters wanting to listen to my talks on rations and personal kit. We had a guy showing members of the public the kit a soldier would carry and getting kids to try the webbing (etc) for size, which they loved... etc...

The people I most respect in the "re-enactment hobby" tend not to like the term "re-enactor" because of your argument. They prefer "Living Historian"...

A couple of points...
You are definitely the exception rather than the rule!! Time and time again Ive seen kit laid out, including soap and foot powder, mess tins etc etc..and thats it....whoever laid it out is either parading his immaculate uniform to other reenactors or cleaning his gun ready for an embarrasing gun battle at 2 paces! There is often some type of noticeboard with surprisingly cherry picked photos and a very potted history of the regiment and some half arsed flyers hoping to be picked up by a nervous member of the public! Where are the 'Living Historians'???

Second point
A vast majority are NOT Living Historians...they get dressed up. They reenact fictional or semi fictional battles. There are of course exceptions but I am sure that many reenactors do not read widely on the subject...they have their books on uniforms and equipment and their chosen regiment...how many read Political History, how many have read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich...or the Life of Winston Churchill.......how many have a grounded solid historical base??? Very few know of civilian life on the homefront. I suppose this is down to people in general.....they want their history on a plate and its fed to them in easy to swallow portions at any event. Please dont get me wrong...Im sure there are many people who regard themselves as educators..but they are in a minority.

And I apolgise to Gadge...but its kind of linked!!!!

Heh... its true... I am an exception...

But there are a lot of others out there that also investigate and interact... But it is HARD WORK so I can understand why not everyone does it!

I've lost track of how many books I've read on the Chindits and Far East now... I've still got loads piled up ready to be read... In fact I got a new one yesterday published shortly after the expedition... This one written by a couple veterans takes a more humourous look at the Chindits, I'm looking forward to reading it. I've already been checking through the numerous cartoons in it...

I get what you mean about the battles, like Beltrings WW2 battle with a daft ammount of people all in wildy different kit, but then part of it is the show and then part of it is history, like i heard someone saying at WAP "no ones interested in the history they just want to see us shoot at eachother" which is partly right, mr joe public doesnt realy want to listen to a reinactor talking for ages, which is kind of a shame because then the history gets lost.

I meant for airsoft ;D

GREAT!!!!

After all i do WW2 airsoft because like you say to be accepted as a reinactor everyone expects your kit to be perfect, and me being a student dont have the money for that, and in WW2 airsoft all you have to do is your best with what you have, which is whats so great about it.

Thats about says it all.....despite my long winded Churchillian rant!!! CWs comment on how many photos were actually taken then published then picked for newspapers THEN picked for all our lovely books is very good!!!

Yith you are exceptional mate and well done to you for doing it!!!

After all i do WW2 airsoft because like you say to be accepted as a reinactor everyone expects your kit to be perfect, and me being a student dont have the money for that, and in WW2 airsoft all you have to do is your best with what you have, which is whats so great about it.

That's so true... half of our groups membership doesn't have the money to get all the kit. But that doesn't matter.

As long as they can afford the basic stand up uniform (I'm not even talking about webbing and weapons) then they can be a part of the group.

We don't need 6 sets of personal kit, we have 2 or 3 in the group already and that's all we really need.

What we need now is bodies, people don't have to do a great deal, just keep an eye on the display, listen to the talks and be willing to learn and eventually be able to talk to the public... We can lend pretty much everything else that is needed.

I'm sure there are many other groups like this... on the other hand their are groups that have very high expectations from the word "go"...

Personally, when starting out re-enacting as a total newbie i didn't get any grief from anyone - though I had lots of *advice* from firmly held opinion / grounded research none of it was presented in a manner intended to ridicule me - like a parasite I soaked up every bit of info I could...... and then checked it out. My primary interest is the research, so in reality I don't actually attend many re-enactment events but I take my ww2 airsoft gear 99% as seriously as my ww2 reenactment gear. Each to their own though...... it doesn't bother me what others dress like to attend an airsoft event as it's for fun and there's no intent to educate the public but for reenactment (aka living history) I do feel that it is right that a high standard is called for which is where contention can arise (EDIT: amongst reenactors) for a variety of reasons, some of them valid.

I have a focus to my own research but, even though I belong to a few forums, unless invited to of late I rarely post even when i disagree with what is written - as the unexpected ill feeling which sometimes results makes it not worth the bother. T'hat said, my research findings are published on my website and I'll happily debate away with interested parties by email as there's always others who are better informed on some minutae which is of interest to me.

Broadening the subject a bit though, rarely is there one researcher, one website, one book, one documentary, one film and (perhaps most importantly) one veteran that can be relied upon in totality: there are way too many variables with regard to date, theatre, nationality, unit, role, etc, etc which can all influence appearance and action *at a point in time*. Reenactors tend to try to overcome this conundrum by going for a representative (generic) look but the field for airsofters can be so much wider.

Gaz has already mentioned the Brit airborne soldier at the Hartenstein with an M1 carbine and there were two GPs there with them: an officer carried one in (an earlier gift from the SAS after a cancelled op) and the other's was a replacement weapon after his sten was mangled by a mortar burst (from a provost weapon stash but presumably sourced from one of the few US personnel who were also present) but no one can say for sure if either are the chap in the photo or even if its a GP and not some other airborne with another battlefield retrieval.

There's also a photo of a glider pilot in a kilt.... not the standard wear and the weight of it was probably the unfortunate cause of his death as he drowned when he later tried to swim the Rhine.

And on the subject of photos in books - even respected titles can provide suspect evidence. I recently picked up an Osprey title on Varsity and there's a famous photo of two Brit glider pilots who are - if I remember it right - incorrectly described as paratroopers. Ho hum. And in front of me I have p235 of "20th Century Military Uniforms": the narrative which accompanies the image is full of errors ..... I think i better go have a lie down

EDIT: I guess, like Yith, I'm an exception....

Houndsworth does make many valid observations of the re-enacting world in general in his "rant", but it could give the impression to some without experience of of reenacting/Living History that that is how it is right accross the board. I've been an airsoft player for nine years and a re-enactor for six years and maybe I've been lucky but my personal experience of reenactment has not been like that of Houndsworths. I've been a member of two groups in that six years, "Screaming Eagles" LHG (was GI44 before that) and at present of the 4th Wiltshires LHG. Screaming Eagles had the more "traditional approach to the hobby but without being too over the top about, but even then standards of kit through the group were far from consistant. While blatently incorrect kit was picked up on nobody was villified for it. The 4th Wilts however have what I consider from previous experience to be a very laid back approach but their kit standard on the whole are pretty high. They certainly don't have any pretensions of being anything special, they're just a group of like minded blokes who enjoy the hobby.

I do certainly agree that when things go bad in the way described by Houndsworth that it can become very unpleasent for those involved, I've seen a number of groups torn apart over the year by internal disputes and politics and it isn't pretty. My feeling on my kit is that I will try to achieve the best that I can within the financial and other constraints that I have to deal with, that said I can't honestly expect any other individual to be any different, as has been said we all have to start somewhere.

While recognising that nobody likes a "stitch nazi" I don't think that should prevent open discussion of kit authenticity, I've never understood why some folks have stuff that is plain wrong when perhaps it wouldn't have cost them any more to have got it right. The trick is as has been pointed out is to be courteous and to keep things in perspective, it is just a hobby after all. A good example is something I spotted when I first joined the 4th Wilts. One of the blokes had an American 3.5inch bazooka on the display and while it was on the drawing board in WW2 it didn't see active service until Korea. I eventually got chatting to him about it and was able to let him know without upsetting or offending him, he's now sold it and put the money towards what is frankly a gorgeous deactivated .303 Vickers machine gun.

I guess it's the same in most group hobbies, I know it can be the case also in mainstream airsoft at times, personalities and politics can get in the way of a good time.

Just gotta rise above it. There's plenty more things to worry about in the world than if i have the correct kit.

I cant see ww2 airsoft or airsoft in general becoming a competing ground for "Best Dressed". When i see someone fully kitted out i see it is an inspiration to me i see idea's...and if they are on the oposing team i shoot them. (during games).

Sorry about the late appearance but this is a good thread. I think it is good to let the frustration out sometimes.

I am a airsofter 1st and ww2 second. I have limited budgets but try to get the best impression I can. I don't want to look ridiculously wrong nor claim my kit is perfect. I also want to roll around in the mud and not worry. I have however spent a lot of money already.

My feeling is that a basic but similar kit level for each side works best. There are people who will have period soap, there will be people in Flecktarn with an AK. I want the best Brit kit I can afford, but only have a 49 pat battledress (£20 Sabre - 37 pat £100). I have a Belgian 50s Denison (£30 not £100 for a correct one). It's a step up from brown overalls as from a short distance to somone who doesn't know, it looks right. I did get 37 pat webbing and Blancoed it cos it was cheap enough (£18 inc small pack) and really looks right. On e day I might afford better kit and pass on the old stuff to someone starting out.

Clearly the issue here is how you are told you are wrong and exclusion based on kit. Most people have to watch what they spend and the kit guides really help with that (though I did end up putting the free ss eagle on my Heer uniform cos I didn't know any better!). I think most people want to look right as it adds to the whole experience.

CIA are very welcoming and that is the most important aspect for me. Do the best you can and turn up! No one will make you feel bad about what you have or don't have. There are availability problems for some kit, especially some weapons

I like reading the discussions on what is best to have to be more uniform as it means I don't waste money on the wrong kit. Seeing the turnout at an event is an inspiration, I just need to change that eagle now...

i am an airsofter becouse its a bloody good laugh, i am working on a airlanding load out next, my boots will be my issued assualt boots, my 37 patt webbing will be krylon sprayed green, my beret will be a big wool one made in india and sold for 2.99 at jay jays. and it will do till i can be bothered or have the cash to upgrade it. i know no-one will rip the piss out of me for it.

my 37 patt webbing will be krylon sprayed green, .

Save yourself the trouble and cash... just keep it unblancoed and sort it out later... better than ruining perfectly good webbing.

its not that good to be honest yith,,,, some of it is black, and some has red marker pen on it, but it was free, so i can live with it being the wrong green, at least it will be all the same colour

Loads of valid points!!!! Dont get me wrong though...I strive for absolute accuracy in what I wear but not to the detriment of good manners and humour. It would be interesting to find out when Woodlander first got into reenacting because I feel that a lot of nastiness has crept into the hobby. It seems its being taken over by young militants. Maybe Im just too old fashioned and expect just decent manners from everybody......

We never had any nastiness when I was doing 18th Jacobite stuff......and thats an absolute minefield..with most of the stuff being copied from portraits and surviving articles in museums....no SOF for us!!! Our interaction with the public was constant and an absolute pleasure.

In regards to photos ( sorry Gadge!!) Ive been wearing an RAC drop holster as Id seen it first mentioned in various books, then in one photo and now Ive got a pic of Jim Almonds wearing one..so sorted!! Im not going to worry that not everyone wore one..although being jeep based it would make sense!! On another note which links all this together I am currently wearing my pistol lanyard at the back of my belt as in photos of SAS in Termoli....on the Tuddenham do everytime I knelt down to fire, the bloody thing kept getting caught on my boot heel....so theres a lesson there I feel!!!!

when I was doing 18th Jacobite stuff

Good man.

P.S. not an 18th C. re-enactor.

but to call ones self a living historian is rather humorous to me.
Click

It's been ages since I've played airsoft, so my opinion is, of course, biased. I prefer the term "living historian" myself, because to some people the term re-enactor is aimed at people just doing the mock battles, or 'blat-fests'. In other words, people who 'like playing war' instead of the historical sides of things.
Of course not everyone thinks there is a distinction between Living Historian and Re-enactor.

In Airsoft you get a bit of both I guess. Those who like their uniform to be correct and those who are more interested in playing a game. As long as everyone's happy

but to call ones self a living historian is rather humorous to me.
Click

It's been ages since I've played airsoft, so my opinion is, of course, biased. I prefer the term "living historian" myself, because to some people the term re-enactor is aimed at people just doing the mock battles, or 'blat-fests'. In other words, people who 'like playing war' instead of the historical sides of things.
Of course not everyone thinks there is a distinction between Living Historian and Re-enactor.

In Airsoft you get a bit of both I guess. Those who like their uniform to be correct and those who are more interested in playing a game. As long as everyone's happy

Exactly...its all about a sane level......a balance between accuracy and enjoyment. To me the enjoyment side of things in reenactment has been vastly overshadowed by the pursuit of absolute perfection!!

Loads of valid points!!!! Dont get me wrong though...I strive for absolute accuracy in what I wear but not to the detriment of good manners and humour. It would be interesting to find out when Woodlander first got into reenacting because I feel that a lot of nastiness has crept into the hobby. It seems its being taken over by young militants. Maybe Im just too old fashioned and expect just decent manners from everybody......

Hi Houndsworth.

Started out with Dark Ages re-enactment about 8 years ago which I eventually stopped for health reasons (left lung can be a bit dodgy plus kept getting injured!) and started WW2 in 2005, having taken up airsoft somewhere in between. Yes, some WW2 re-enactors can be lacking in humour and manners but WW2 is a much bigger 'scene' than some of the earlier periods where everyone seems to know everyone else and so - just maybe - there's a greater incentive to be patient / undertsanding / helpful. It's also true that there are many WW2 re-enactors who are patient / understanding / helpful - there are a few on here.

Something about WW2 which I think is different to the earlier periods is that it seems to attract the 'instant re-enactor with a wallet' - and so - again just maybe - newbies can sometimes be viewed with suspicion inasmuch as some "serious living historians" might be concerned that inappropriate actions / appearance / etc might in some way corrupt or otherwise diminish what for them is more than a hobby. BTW i'm not justifying rudeness (am old fashioned too!), just thinking aloud.

I think that WW2 airsoft is a much more undertanding 'hobby' in that it is all about the taking of personal pleasure (ie, having fun) whereas motives for re-enactment can include a sense of duty (protecting the memory of the fallen, etc) which can call for a quite different emotional commitment (and when it gets emotional it just gets messy, right?!).

EDIT:

Getting back to where the topic started ..... maybe the guy on the front of the SOF catalogue with his chinstrap pulled up onto his helmet has a boil on his chin?

Nice post Woodlander and some valid points!

However I dont agree on the use of dressing up and daft battles as a memorial to the fallen. I personally think that if every 'living historian' educated the public then it would be a worthwhile endeavour. I pay my respects by simply remembering and being emotionally involved by reading...lots of reading. I suppose my main point is all down to the education side of things. In the vast majority reenactors simply dont do it...it doesnt happen.

Another problem is the modern demands of the average person attending these shows. Are they really interested in how long it took for Pte Smith to go through basic training? How much they got paid? Or does little Billy just want to grab hold of a gun. This would be great if it was reinforced by 'education'..but it isnt..its reinforced by those dreaded mock battles!!!

Its ironic that an old fashioned forgotten world where manners and common decency were common are being represented by yobbos in khaki.

I think there is something seriously wrong in the reenactment world. Its either inhabited by a very few old timers who done it the hard way and want everyone to know it or the young and rude who demand instant perfection when they havent even lived a life. I dont see any people who fall into the gap, I dont see any old timers passing on their knowledge.

In regards to the earlier periods that people reenact......I cant agree with that entirely.....Yes its a lot smaller era than ww2...but it also involves great attention to accuracy but doesnt involve doing someone down because theyve got too many buttons on their gaiters, or their white cockade isnt made of silk.

I looked at your site many moons ago Woodlander...if only that amount of detail was transferred to events?? You arent part of a group?? Why? 1.Because you choose to do Glider Regt.......too specialist for most tastes.......2.You know too much!!!!

This whole problem reminds me of when I used to deal in antique furniture. Nearly all my stuff was bought by dealers to sell onto other dealers who perhaps sold a small proportion to the general public. Anything left over would be back in the auction room to repeat the cycle! I think reenactors only reenact to each other, the standards have only gone up not to remember the fallen but to guard oneself against ridicule.

Of course this is all very personal to me...its my view and one that I wont apologise for. Im sure there are others whove had a different experience and Ive met a few reenactors who are great!

In regards to SOFs photos ( to keep Gadge from getting annoyed!) They are a business and dont care who buys what badge for what uniform. The cover photo is indeed dodgy but is made up of reenactors and joe public. Maybe in time that photo will resurface and it will form the basis of a reenactment regiment for War and Peace 2300 AD!!!

However I dont agree on the use of dressing up and daft battles as a memorial to the fallen.

I can't have explained myself very well as I didn't mean this . IMO public battles aren't a memorial as they're more gate-fee entertainment than education; I'm in absolute agreement that they're not remembrance.

Its just me mate...Im getting all bitter and twisted in my dotage....I didnt infer from your post that you meant battles!!

In fact everyone disregard my rants..I love everyone.....everyone is lovely...alls well in the world...haha..heheh ( sound of door being broken down and someone saying its going to be alright where your going Mr Grant, interspersed with the loud noise of furniture being knocked over)