use of support weapons

My thoughts are that they get the extra ammo as there suppose to support the squad and lay down suppression or covering fire. I imagen thats not what there used as

I think support weapons should be limited to maybe one a squad or two depending on the size of things. I'm not sure of squad roles but it would be good to see a few events try and get realistic, easier said then done

As for the ammo limits well a 200-300 rds seems to work (make people think more about ammo consumption), crossed with only HQ/support truck resupply.

Hmm thats given me an idea

JD

As a support gunner myself this is a topic close to my heart. At the end of the day the only advantage a MG has over an assault rifle is a higher ammo limit (In airsoft terms anyway) so this should not be curtailed as if used properly with plenty of suppresive fire it is possible to run out of ammo in a single engagement.

I think its more a way of integrating them into the game so that they are not simply a large sub machine gun.so..
1) Should operate as a 2 man team
2) Ammo distributed amongst squad so that squad members have to support the MG, as Boshman posted on a differant thread.
3) Squad organised to fight around the MG and mutually support eachother under the direction of a squad leader who isnt running around trying to kill everyone himself

MG's at the moment are certainly not over effective in a smg game as soon as a MG appears he becomes a BB magnet.

In a predominately rifle game yes it could become dominant if used wisely, but surely thats the point of them. Tactics of use v's tactics of overcomming them.

Just my 2 pence worth. (Woops Craig might read this....must hastily edit)

Actual edit: This is the sort of thing I am hoping Alte Hasen can address and organise for ourselves, however if game organisers take it on board all well and good.

I agree with Pride's point mainly - they should be a multi person team, at least 2 people being needed to operate it (not just 2 people on a list, but the second does his own thing on the day).

In games with any SMG and the rest then the ammo limits are fine, make 'em high enough to lay down fire and people are then bringing them for the fun of it (the .30 was great at Anzio, but you NEED a 'trusted' group of infantry to work with you).

In 'other' systems, then real steal (or relative to it in relation tot he rifles), modified for attack/defence, with numbers limited to historical accuracy and a dedicated crew on sign-up.

i think the two man crew is a good idea but all to often the loader is lost to the game as another player,maybe a role switch at each move in position between gunner and loader (also stops one man getting knackered carrying it )or simply only a side arm for the loader so he doesn't wonder off .

The loader/assistant has to be a job someone wants to do. Therefore alternating firing of the MG is a good start to encourage someone to fufill the roll. Im working on 3 drum mags mid cap (for an MG) so that the pair will have to work as a team to reload sometimes under fire.

In a predominately rifle game yes it could become dominant if used wisely, but surely thats the point of them. Tactics of use v's tactics of overcomming them.

.

I agree with many points that people have stated BUT this is the most per-tenant point that everyone gets hung up with and MG`s were there to give a advantage thats the point of them to supress for the rifles OR SMG`s

Just get the Roles of players right Rifle SMG and Support weapon

As an MG idiot myself i really agree with the points being raised but think its all dependant on the type of support weapon being used. My bren was fed through midcap AK mags and therefore there was a lot more reloading time which in terms led to the rest of the group around me being a bit more tuned in to the fact that support of the support gunner was a factor.
Also because of the midcap feed i had to carry a far more mags about so the max ammo i would carry at any one time would be about 600 cause with the whole weight of mags and gun together was a mighty slog.
The majority of german MGs are mostly converted drum mag feeds yes so the availablity to hammer down the max ammo capacity in continuous fire realy takes away a real edge of what would be mag changes and even barrel changes that would happen with real steel use.
My thoughts to how the rules could be tweaked have already been pointed out, the 2 man team/ammo limit( whether max per life or even max per magazine)/prone deployment of use( already in place but maybe needs a bit more re enforcement)
Be interested to see what comes up.

so to sum up so far
1 a two man alternating team
2 ammo limit per mag forcing re loads
3 additional ammo carried by squad
4 prone or deployed use
5 proper integrated use in squad

Think it may be have to be refined/added/detracted from over a few events to test how able and willing people are for the changes and lets put it this way us support gunners arnt very bright, thats why we carry heavy things
Also its going to be more evident dependant on the game mechanics that are in place, i.e. a rifle only compared to the more standard SMG format. What will work in one wont necessarily work in the other so will it be one guideline for one etc.,or will a happy medium have to be struck, or will it be a case of the individual organiser making the call?

from a US point of view I would expect the loader to be carrying a M1 Carbine or perhaps a M3 Grease Gun. As they were light enough to be carried by MG teams or mortar teams. In airsoft terms I hope this remains the same so a loader isnt just sitting there winding a high cap mag. My 30 once I have all the niggley bits done away with can take an m249 Box mag of 2k rounds or 180 round M4 Vietnam style mags, which are hidden in the lower reciever.

I know alot of MG's are project guns but the way I am building mine (BAR included) is that its ROF will be standard but its range and power will be maximum. Will be building both to be around for 340 FPS mark with the longest tight bore barrel they will possibly take. My BAR for example has a barrel which is more than twice the legth of my thompson and over 3 times the legth of my grease gun. So I know it will shoot furthur and more accurately then any SMG on the field. Perhaps the ROF could be made higher to make them more feared?

Also this is where perhaps were rifles at the 400 FPS mark could be come great at taking down MG's especially if they are able to fire a few shots while having their position concealed.

Just my opinions but I am happy to try out what ever the game organiser wants to do.

when tiny used his mg42 in past ww2 games, i was no2 assistant with my tanaka 98, my main job was spotting targets for him, also i would snipe at anyone who was trying to flank us, whilst tiny just HOSED the entire area. as it uses 250 rd high caps that manually wind, as no2 i would wind the mag whilst he fired suppressive fire, if i stop to shoot he has to wind himself, thus slowing down rate of fire.

also we only used one mag, so when 250 rounds is out, we had to refill the magazine , rewind it and reload the gun. this took 20-30 seconds , about the time a good crew can do a 250 belt out of an ammo tin and barrel change.

the american troops we were fighting worked this out and started to move up in bounds.

for extra range tiny has a 600mm tightbore barrel from my g41 project, but we tend to use different weight ammo mixed up so we get good dispersion.
MG`s are suppressive weapons and are not designed for accuracy (bren excluded)

Also as tinys `42 is 85% original steel, its a similar weight to a real support weapon and its bloody hard work to attack with it, but bloody good fun when you do manage it.

it will be vehicle mounted a fuhrers escape, but will still use 250 round mags for realistic mag changes

this is all just about throwing up idea's and its obviously down to event organizers to decide how they want things ,i think at the moment the only difference of opinion is mag capacity and what role the second gunner has,and its worth noting that a hi cap can be only partially filled so if you have a 2000rnd box mag then it can still be filled 100rnds at a time.all things considered that's a good start.

I think the main thing is the MGs should have LOADS more firepower than rifles and SMGs, which in Airsoft terms basically comes down to lots of ammo. What 'lots' means depends on the type of game and the ammo limits for other weapons, although real steel ammo limits for a tripod mounted MG42 or Vickers are around 7,000 rounds.... LMGs were more like 1000-1500. I like the idea of mag changes to simulate belt changes though.

I think crew served is a must, there is plenty for a No.2 to do, as Porta says - spotting, reloading, close protection etc. Really you need a full gun group with a commander to direct its movements and targets and a couple of riflemen to carry, ammo, do flank security and so on.

Cheers
Martin

so to sum up so far
1 a two man alternating team
2 ammo limit per mag forcing re loads
3 additional ammo carried by squad
4 prone or deployed use
5 proper integrated use in squad

YES. As an organiser this is EXACTLY how I see support weapons working. An awful lot depends on assigning a player who is mature enough to be a No.2 (or No.3 or No.4) for more than 5 minutes tho....

so to sum up so far
1 a two man alternating team
2 ammo limit per mag forcing re loads
3 additional ammo carried by squad
4 prone or deployed use
5 proper integrated use in squad

YES. As an organiser this is EXACTLY how I see support weapons working. An awful lot depends on assigning a player who is mature enough to be a No.2 (or No.3 or No.4) for more than 5 minutes tho....

I tend to think a support gun should come with one/them, ie if you don't got the No2 and ammo bearer willing to do those roles, then don't bring a support weapon.

so to sum up so far
1 a two man alternating team
2 ammo limit per mag forcing re loads
3 additional ammo carried by squad
4 prone or deployed use
5 proper integrated use in squad

YES. As an organiser this is EXACTLY how I see support weapons working. An awful lot depends on assigning a player who is mature enough to be a No.2 (or No.3 or No.4) for more than 5 minutes tho....

I tend to think a support gun should come with one/them, ie if you don't got the No2 and ammo bearer willing to do those roles, then don't bring a support weapon.

its practical advise as well ,lugging a support weapon around all day on you'r Todd Johns is back breaking and no fun at all,speaking as someone who has been let down twice by seconds i wont do it alone.

so to sum up so far
1 a two man alternating team
2 ammo limit per mag forcing re loads
3 additional ammo carried by squad
4 prone or deployed use
5 proper integrated use in squad

YES. As an organiser this is EXACTLY how I see support weapons working. An awful lot depends on assigning a player who is mature enough to be a No.2 (or No.3 or No.4) for more than 5 minutes tho....

I tend to think a support gun should come with one/them, ie if you don't got the No2 and ammo bearer willing to do those roles, then don't bring a support weapon.

I disagree. I'd say a support gun should end up with a crew rather than come with a crew. Personally, as a bloke-wots-not-too-clever-but-can-lift-heavy-boxes I could be a No.2/3/4 for gunners that I don't even know but am happy to be assigned to. I put the onus on the organiser rather than the gun owner.

it depends on what level of command structure you build into the game as to weather its a pre arranged two players or a duty that is given in the command structure.personally I'm happy to loan out my bren so long as there's time to brief the users on its battery and magazine operation's, equally im happy to do an equal share of duty's as i would not expect anybody to spend the day filling mags for me.

But assigning a player could force them into a position they do not want to be in, they might want to play with their friends, not some fellow they don't know, or simply want something out of the game that they don't want (contrary to popular belief I do actually care that people get what they want out of the day, it is why I go to great lengths to state what the 'rules' are beforehand, to mitigate the disappointment factor ) .

I know what dadio means, I saw him lugging the thing around at Giogio, and I saw Webby man a .30 on his own at gulch - I was left with it myself once - Gun Ammo and Tripod- but that was only at an open day, it aint nice.

But the nice responsible people that one may wish would be a support gunner are just the types who like to obey orders, and say yes at the detriment of their day, which is a shame.

I see no problem in recruiting on the forum before a game, advertising for assistants, and I think with our bunch you would get people who are happy to do the support role. Even people who are willing to rotate on and off the gun team so everybody gets a turn.

But if it is a 'players gun' that they want to use for the day, then yeah, crew it up.