use of support weapons

it depends on what level of command structure you build into the game

tru dat.

But assigning a player could force them into a position they do not want to be in

IMHO support crew always volunteer. The issue is how serious they are about spending the day carrying boxes and tripods. That's a call for the game organisers. AGS games seem to appeal to the folks who like to obey orders and we have always been very upfront about this. If you don't do orders then go somewhere else.

possibly if it was a 3-4 man crew that was assigned (drafted) rather than a 2 man crew , then there would be less burden on the less willing and maybe they could trade position with another player.from what i've seen there are no end of volunteer's for special duty such as engineer,mine sweeper ,squad leader (maybe less so cos we'r British) etc ... and thats a great part of the game.as i said i would happily volunteer my bren as a game element for a drafted squad as long as i was at the game.

i would happily volunteer my bren as a game element for a drafted squad as long as i was at the game.

And I would happily help man it.

As I said after Eagles I think there is a real role for LMG support in rifle only games with real ammo limits. I would guess that a real ammo limit for a Bren was probably closer to 750 in filled magazines per section - 8 men with 2 each the gunner with four and the support with 8 (Assuming the latter two's pouches are rammed) gives 28 with 28 rounds each - 784.

In games with an abundance of SMGs then they still have their place but I agree that their effectiveness and superiority is then defined by much higher ammo limits.

Personally I would rather see ammo limits slashed across the board.

Charlie

when tiny used his mg42 in past ww2 games, i was no2 assistant with my tanaka 98, my main job was spotting targets for him, also i would snipe at anyone who was trying to flank us, whilst tiny just HOSED the entire area. as it uses 250 rd high caps that manually wind, as no2 i would wind the mag whilst he fired suppressive fire, if i stop to shoot he has to wind himself, thus slowing down rate of fire.

also we only used one mag, so when 250 rounds is out, we had to refill the magazine , rewind it and reload the gun. this took 20-30 seconds , about the time a good crew can do a 250 belt out of an ammo tin and barrel change.

You two are a great MG team, and I thought you had it spot on for the balance between firepower and the issue of reloading / "barrel changing" time.

Personally I would rather see ammo limits slashed across the board.

Me too! It's an evolving process, as we all put on different events. To nullify the over-power of the SMG (in relation to other weapons), we are reducing ammo limits across the board, so the SMG player will have to use it very sparingly. At Sevastopol, it was 200 rounds per life. At the next AGS event it will be less. The brilliant Eagles event had some great ideas about ammo and resupply, which has been shaping my thinking.

I have read with interest as I have 2 MG's myself and do like to use them. Not going over the points people have mentioned before I would like to make one very important fact. An MG can be fired, reloaded, maintained and carried by one man. Too much emphasis is being placed on an MG having to have a support crew of 1 or more, what happens when the support crew are taken out, does the MG become useless, of course not. Thats the reason an MG was placed in a support role for a section and why 50 cals wern't. It is good to have a second man to help out and act as security for the MG gunner, however, in my opinion it is not strictly needed. An MG can be deployed and manned by one man and resupplied by his squad.

An MG can be fired, reloaded, maintained and carried by one man

yes, but we don't want them to be
A MG is a massive advantage in terms of firepower. Giving it some disadvantages in terms of movement and crew evens things out a little.

If it was so easy for one why did armies have multi person crews on machine guns?
The ammunition alone weighs more than 1 can carry, then there is the tripod, special sights for the tripod, spare barrels blah blah blah.

Read what Tony said again

An MG can be deployed and manned by one man and resupplied by his squad.

One MG in place can easily be operated by one man, it is shifting it around and its associated ammo, spares etc which requires a team and/or transport.

Which of course is how Lt Dease and Private Godley won their respective VCs at Mons. Godley even survived after manning his Vickers on his own for two hours. He had to destroy the gun when it ran out of ammo though, as he couldn't move it on his won.

Cheers
Martin

I understand your points gents and as Poacher has said why did the MG have crews assigned. Well its simple, the MG is a multi role weapon and in some instances a crew is needed, however, when used as a section weapon it doesnt. As Martin has pointed out spare barrels and ammo are carried by the squad but where as a Vickers is cumbersome a MG is not and this was the reason for their design, ease of carrying and deployment to give a maximum rate of supporting fire. As for being an advantage I can only agree if used correctly and as having played the part of the MG gunner at a few games the big disadvantage I have found is finding a decent position to deploy the gun. At 'The Mace' game ther area had excellent areas for deployment and worked well, however, there have been a few cases where this was not so and the MG was none or of little use as the terrain dictated so. There is a very big difference between a static and mobile gunner which I am sure those of us who have undertaken these roles will agree. Just my penny worth gents speaking from experience, I do understand the points being made and just adding mine to the mix.

But if we are to play WW2 and try to follow WW2 practice then the section MG has a crew not just 1 guy.
The Bren group is a sub set of the British infantry section, 3 men.
The MG34/42 is a sub set of the German gruppe/squad, 3men.
The BAR/support group is a sub set of the US squad, 4 men.

But if we are to play WW2 and try to follow WW2 practice then the section MG has a crew not just 1 guy.
The Bren group is a sub set of the British infantry section, 3 men.
The MG34/42 is a sub set of the German gruppe/squad, 3men.
The BAR/support group is a sub set of the US squad, 4 men.

As I have already pointed out the MG is a Section weapon, not an individual weapon and is resupplied by the squad/section that it is a part of. When we do WW2 airsoft the mobile MG gunner is always placed in a squad like so which I believe keeps in with the format of things.

The aim of trying out different rules for things like support weapons is to try and balance a good level of realism with a good level of enjoyment within a game. It's not a science and it depends very much on the scenario. Sometimes new rules aimed at increased realism work well, sometimes they don't. That's why we tend to tweak them according to each particular event.

The aim of trying out different rules for things like support weapons is to try and balance a good level of realism with a good level of enjoyment within a game. It's not a science and it depends very much on the scenario. Sometimes new rules aimed at increased realism work well, sometimes they don't. That's why we tend to tweak them according to each particular event.

Indeed, requiring 4 people to run an MG at, say, a Gunman game would not be fair (you do that for fun).

But allowing unrestricted 1 man MG players at an AGS game would also not be fair.

It's up to the scenario runner, they stipulate what they want us to do, and how they want to run things.

But if we are to play WW2 and try to follow WW2 practice then the section MG has a crew not just 1 guy.
The MG34/42 is a sub set of the German gruppe/squad, 3men.

Whilst it is true that a truppe within the gruppen was designated as the MG truppe with the Gruppenfuhrer in direct command, it should be remembered that the third man of the team was actually just a designated ammo carrier and did not man the MG.

Whist it is perfectly possible to use an Airsoft MG as a one man weapon, any belt fed gun requires a second member just to ensure the belt feeds smoothly, if you look at videos of an MG firing, even with the ammo belt comming directly out of a box, the belt bucks and twists with the vibration of the gun requiring that second member to do his job of feeding the ammo. Of course in airsoft terms as we use an ammo drum rather than a belt fed weapon we dot have this problem, remember an ammo drum only had 50 rounds, which would last for just seconds on full auto.

I agree with Tony though on one point, MG's are not too effective, there only advantage is more ammo and maybe another 10 foot range on an AEG, weigh against that the cumbersomeness of the weapon and the need to fire from a set up position, in most games they have no advantage. But of course if some organisers go down the road of rifle heavy forces or very limited ammo then crewing the weapon not only looks better but helps to even things out.

Personally though, now like Tony I have a MG34 and a MG42 I want a game were I can use both at the same time each fired from the hip, oh they already do them ...open days

Whist it is perfectly possible to use an Airsoft MG as a one man weapon, any belt fed gun requires a second member just to ensure the belt feeds smoothly, if you look at videos of an MG firing, even with the ammo belt comming directly out of a box, the belt bucks and twists with the vibration of the gun requiring that second member to do his job of feeding the ammo.

Of course in airsoft terms as we use an ammo drum rather than a belt fed weapon we dot have this problem,

speek for the'self :-- attachment is not available --
Just finished attaching the feed tube to the ammo belt. A lot of the fun of playing with it is that though it CAN be fired by one person ideally it needs two (one to feed, one to fire). Someone to direct you and co-ordinate you with everyone else when you are prone with a helmet obscuring 70% of your vision is useful. Plus it needs 3 people for Gun, Tripod and Ammo to move.

The main thing, now I think on it, that people have used for a support weapon rule which I definitely do not like at all is the 400 fps limit.

my turn

i intitally wrote a load of codswallop about how a mg fitted into each zug/squad and then realised we all knew how an mg was used in the real world, the question was how do we think it should be used in airsoft....but then i thought, thats the same as asking how long the proverbial piece of string is.

From previous posts and discussions the best charactoristic of ww2 airsoft is the variety from game to game and organiser to organiser so no two games would be the same. meaning at the end of the day the organiser sets up the mg rules based upon the game they want to create, rather than a single rule or structure for mg usage. So if they want an authentic structure then follow the real world unit/squad layout - if not then dont, if they want a blastfest then do what you want with the mg - if not then limit ammo and firing positions......at the end of the day a little white BB will never have the same impact or affect of a real round, so firing 30 BB's from a mag will not be the same as 30 rounds of live ammo flying at you, nor will it have the same surpressing force or physicological effect.

so before we could answer the question of what an mg should be used for and how, we need to know what we want it to achieve, back to the role/restrictions should fit the scenario or event.

Just finished attaching the feed tube to the ammo belt.

Yes working on one myself for the MG42 on a tripod, the cloth ammo belt seems more suited for it than the German belt link but sure I will mange it

my turn

at the end of the day a little white BB will never have the same impact or affect of a real round, so firing 30 BB's from a mag will not be the same as 30 rounds of live ammo flying at you, nor will it have the same surpressing force or physicological effect.

I must be more of a coward than you Simon, I run for cover from a BB as it were a bullet

my turn

at the end of the day a little white BB will never have the same impact or affect of a real round, so firing 30 BB's from a mag will not be the same as 30 rounds of live ammo flying at you, nor will it have the same surpressing force or physicological effect.

I must be more of a coward than you Simon, I run for cover from a BB as it were a bullet

That's more your suspension of disbelief rolling in mate.

Looking at a realistic set up, so effectively real steel ammo limits, which will work in a "rifle-centric" game, we have two roles for MG34/42s...

#1 Squad weapon, drum mags run by 2 people or maybe 1.
50 rounds in a mag if at real steel, with extra carried by ammo carriers.
Could perhaps be fired from the hip in short bursts... remember we have an ammo limit of what can go in the mag!

#2 Support weapon. Should be on a tripod (?) with belt fed ammo, simulated ammo box and barrel changes (if possible on the gun) and a crew of 2 or 3.
Ammo limits, much higher... we could be up at the 1000s, though perhaps only a few hundred.

Brens and BARs fit into category #1 above, obviously using appropriate mags and ammo limits. So about 30 per mag for the bren, 20 for the BAR.

.30cals and .50cals fit into category #2

In an "SMG-centric" game, then the ammo limits go up, but no reason why the other stuff couldn't stay the same.

Thoughts?