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zero in frustration

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dadio
(@dadio)
Posts: 3523
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you may or may not go on zero in forum , i do and i set up a thread trying to bring some awareness to ww2 airsoft , it's been really frustrating of late trying to steer it away from "dem Nazis is evil" , some people just cant except that not every German soldier was a card carrying Nazi or that even if they were they were largely a product of their time and conditioning from all form's of media and schooling .these people just cant get past it , how can any sort of airsoft exist without 2 sides that fraught over doctrine often long consigned to the realms of shameful history. ahhhhhh!!!!!! it's so difficult to explain what we do when half the post's i get back are of this train of thought :slap: .
just had to vent sorry

armoury
m1a1 Thompson,sten mk2,mp40,stg44,sterling,mk2 bren gun,lee Enfield no4 mk1,Mauser Kar98, Walther ppk,smith and Weston m10 and Mauser m712
Give me a big enough hammer and a place to stand and I could fix the world.
i'll kill a man in a fair fight or if i think he's going to start a fair fight or over a woman or.......
a problem shared is a problem halved ,but an advantage shared is no advantage at all
if a job's not worth doing then its certainly not worth doing well





 
Posted : 04/12/2013 7:59 pm
(@prideofengland)
Posts: 2142
Noble Member
 

Just had a look :slap: Most people were concerned about the cost of kit etc untill the 'how can you dress as a nazi' rant began.

I did like this quote though: "I didn't like the cut of Hitler's jib, but I did like the cut of his suit!"

I think most people have to have an interest in the period to make the transfer from open day gaming succesfull. It also helps as most people who have an interest know the differance between a Nazi and a German.

 
Posted : 04/12/2013 9:23 pm
Jimmiiee
(@jimmiiee)
Posts: 494
Honorable Member
 

Yeh most people at a normal skirmish day don't care/ don't say anything

But it's the internet, it's full of idiots

 
Posted : 04/12/2013 9:24 pm
Nurglitch
(@nurglitch)
Posts: 280
Reputable Member
 

If you honestly believe in the entire "I just followed orders" and "I didn't know!" stuff all I can do is recommend "The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy", which in my opinion is the most important book ever written about the war. Add to it "The End: Hitler's Germany, 1944-45". Both say a lot about what the Germans as the society knew or did not know and how they participated in the extermination effort and the total war.

I do absolutely get the idea of people dressing in German uniforms, the idea of solely material culture focused reconstruction. I have quite a few re-enactor friends who do that. What I don't get is any effort whatsoever to whitewash and/or exonerate the creatures that originally wore those uniforms.

Kitwhore files: S&S Lee Enfield No. 4, AGM Sten Mk. II, Tanaka Kar 98k, WE Luger P08
Wishlist: AGM Stg44, possible LE No. 4 gas project

 
Posted : 05/12/2013 10:41 am
Poacher
(@poacher)
Posts: 2279
Noble Member
 

Another good book that goes some way to dispel the 'just following orders' myth.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-Old-Days-P ... d+old+days
I would flinch at the thought that there are more than material reconstructions.

aka Stigroadie

AFRA
better by design

"Truth is a shining goddess, always veiled, always distant, never wholly approachable, but worthy of all the devotion of which the human spirit is capable. "

 
Posted : 05/12/2013 10:50 am
ww2stu
(@ww2stu)
Posts: 1032
Noble Member
 

Zero in you are basically dealing with kids, traders and about 5% "normal folk" I read your post and felt annoyed too mate. Might be worth posting pics from a few events.

Stu

 
Posted : 05/12/2013 10:54 am
dadio
(@dadio)
Posts: 3523
Famed Member
Topic starter
 

something else to consider are the results of the now banned "Milligram experiment" [link]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment#Results[/link]
this is a chilling insight into what normal people will do when a figure of authority gives the instructions , 65% of people would give a fatal electric shock if an authority said to do it , while it's a comfort to think "i'm one of the 35% who would not " ,the fact is that you very well may not.
this excuses nothing but it is something that must be factored into the equation of evil intent.

armoury
m1a1 Thompson,sten mk2,mp40,stg44,sterling,mk2 bren gun,lee Enfield no4 mk1,Mauser Kar98, Walther ppk,smith and Weston m10 and Mauser m712
Give me a big enough hammer and a place to stand and I could fix the world.
i'll kill a man in a fair fight or if i think he's going to start a fair fight or over a woman or.......
a problem shared is a problem halved ,but an advantage shared is no advantage at all
if a job's not worth doing then its certainly not worth doing well





 
Posted : 05/12/2013 11:08 am
Poacher
(@poacher)
Posts: 2279
Noble Member
 

Just because you will do something when instructed does not absolve you of the responsibility for doing it.
To expect so is childish and pathetic.

aka Stigroadie

AFRA
better by design

"Truth is a shining goddess, always veiled, always distant, never wholly approachable, but worthy of all the devotion of which the human spirit is capable. "

 
Posted : 05/12/2013 11:26 am
(@prideofengland)
Posts: 2142
Noble Member
 

Just because you will do something when instructed does not absolve you of the responsibility for doing it.
To expect so is childish and pathetic.

Yes true, but it is also human nature, not just on this level but I have also noticed such behaviour in more common walks of life.

Personally I get rather fed up with people taking a moral high stance and telling me it wrong to wear a German/nazi uniform and dont see why I should have to defend it, perhaps if we all turn up in allied kit and wear red and blue armbands to denote sides we will solve the problem :slap:

 
Posted : 05/12/2013 11:47 am
(@prideofengland)
Posts: 2142
Noble Member
 

If you honestly believe in the entire "I just followed orders" and "I didn't know!"

I doubt very much there are many on the forum who believe that, like most others I am fairly well informed on the subject, far more than the average member of the public. In fact I believe that many Germans soldiers not just SS had been conditioned and brutalised into having utter contempt for human life and standard values. But should that stop me putting on a uniform to reenact? should it stop me playing the German side in a wargame with model soldiers or on an pc game etc?

 
Posted : 05/12/2013 11:54 am
marsha
(@marsha)
Posts: 1075
Noble Member
 

Well nothing don't stop me wearing a german uniform and to be frank couldn't give too poo what ppl say

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk





 
Posted : 05/12/2013 12:03 pm
Poacher
(@poacher)
Posts: 2279
Noble Member
 

should it stop me playing the German side in a wargame with model soldiers or on an pc game etc?

Morally or ethically?
Morally, it should twist your conscience a bit doing so? 'Just doing it for fun' rather makes light of the suffering?
Ethically, you should get on with it.

aka Stigroadie

AFRA
better by design

"Truth is a shining goddess, always veiled, always distant, never wholly approachable, but worthy of all the devotion of which the human spirit is capable. "

 
Posted : 05/12/2013 12:05 pm
(@prideofengland)
Posts: 2142
Noble Member
 

Morally, it should twist your conscience a bit doing so? 'Just doing it for fun' rather makes light of the suffering?

Well yes in fairness it probably has at least to start with, but then I am a bit of a worrier :slap:

 
Posted : 05/12/2013 12:34 pm
oddball
(@oddball)
Posts: 3770
Famed Member
 

I would suggest that while at some level and over a number of intervals during WW2 the average German soldier would know what was going on but to what degree he would not.
Once he is given a rifle and informed the enemy are coming, he shoots them or gets shot he will soon forget any idea of what his leaders may be doing especially if it is some 80+ miles away and not shown to him in newspapers, on TV, over the internet, sent him in a TEXT, heard over the radio or sent by letter.

He would just be a guy with a gun told his orders and get on with it or face the consequences.
We can't look at people in the 1940,s in a modern frame of mind, if your leader tells you to invade Poland, Iraq or Afghanistan then you probably will and you will be told you are doing it for the right reasons whether they are true or not.

Watch Vid
Free speech is expensive these days!

 
Posted : 05/12/2013 1:00 pm
(@wladek)
Posts: 4320
Famed Member
 

Another good book that goes some way to dispel the 'just following orders' myth.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-Old-Days-P ... d+old+days
I would flinch at the thought that there are more than material reconstructions.

Before I read on I will add Christopher Browning's book 'ordinary men' to the reading list :D .

 
Posted : 05/12/2013 2:11 pm
(@wladek)
Posts: 4320
Famed Member
 

So the posts before it got to this were people saying they would be interested "if I can wear what I want to (with the right gun of course)" and "as long as it is near to me".

Good god but I do hope my acerbic attitude contributes to putting them off, as I could imagine nothing worse than them being involved with such stipulations.

 
Posted : 05/12/2013 3:20 pm
Chomley-Warner
(@admin-infinity)
Posts: 15632
Illustrious Member Admin
 

Frankly, pretending to kill other people as a hobby is pretty dreadful. If you can get beyond that (and all airsofters seem to be able to) then pretty much everything can be rationalised to one's personal satisfaction and becomes just shades of grey. In airsoft, as with much in this world, it pays not to over-think things. Irritating how the Germans are always singled out for villianisation but meh, we have been has this discussion a thousand times over.

 
Posted : 05/12/2013 4:08 pm
dadio
(@dadio)
Posts: 3523
Famed Member
Topic starter
 

oh i never really meant this as a discussion , more a vent of my frustration at trying to keep a thread on track against a tidal wave of people sidetracking it.

armoury
m1a1 Thompson,sten mk2,mp40,stg44,sterling,mk2 bren gun,lee Enfield no4 mk1,Mauser Kar98, Walther ppk,smith and Weston m10 and Mauser m712
Give me a big enough hammer and a place to stand and I could fix the world.
i'll kill a man in a fair fight or if i think he's going to start a fair fight or over a woman or.......
a problem shared is a problem halved ,but an advantage shared is no advantage at all
if a job's not worth doing then its certainly not worth doing well





 
Posted : 05/12/2013 4:26 pm
Chomley-Warner
(@admin-infinity)
Posts: 15632
Illustrious Member Admin
 

Heh, I don't go near the Zero One forum so I'm not burdened with the views of 14 year olds, numpties, bigots, zealots or dimwits (not mutually exclusive groups). I feel your frustration!

 
Posted : 05/12/2013 5:10 pm
(@prideofengland)
Posts: 2142
Noble Member
 

oh i never really meant this as a discussion , more a vent of my frustration at trying to keep a thread on track against a tidal wave of people sidetracking it.

Whoops groundhog day :whistle:

 
Posted : 05/12/2013 5:15 pm
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