PD's ideas for a game

even got me shouting at the italians at one point and putting on a cockney accent (they speak like that in games so meh)

I agree, I think a coherant command structure is a large part of the immersions, like I said playing with PBI at Husky was very immersive due to the brilliant command structure we had, even got me shouting at the italians at one point and putting on a cockney accent (they speak like that in games so meh)

Low caps I think is a must for SMG's.

TBH no one will know if the "tight" reinactsoft games will work until they are actualy tried so with Lightning, St Lo and Areal coming up hopefully you guys can get a decent idea of the way forward.

Im definately planning on getting a rifle now because of this thread, I want to make the effort as to not get excluded even if it costs me an arm and a legg.

On a side note over half of the British guys at husky had rifles, and Barrys Bren was also present.

second to last line says it all. is that the way ww2 airsoft wants to go? if so i think there will be many that go back to modern open day play.

No, I really don't think so Nige. Just look at the huge amount of kit you have collected to get the look just right - even down to having two pistol lanyards of different periods! As a reenactor you know how important it is to get into the zone - this is what WW2 airsoft battles are all about. It's taken CiA three years to get this far - we are making progress, people are getting the message, people are making the effort. This is good!

However, you are right - as things stand at the moment there still aren't the weapons available (or affordable) to make things completely 'authentic'. There will have to be compromises and a good dose of pragmatism for a good while yet - hopefully in another three years things will change. However, some players will be always be excluded from games - they always have. We (CiA) didn't allow American troops at Arhem and we won't at Aerial - it would be ludicrous to the genre if we did allow it, and no one objects to that. So, at some point in the future, when more kit is available, we will be more prescriptive on weapons carried. Remember the slight kerfuffle over bolt-actions at Op Lightning? It remains an aspiration to have a realistic weapon distribution but PBI are as pragmatic as any game organiser - some things may be desirable but just not possible practically. We work with the tools we have.

So Nige, if players go back to open days then that's fine - WW2 is clearly not for them. But I'm (along with the CiA team) looking forward and getting excited at what the future may bring. It's been a hard slog to get this far and things can only get better!

so i imagine there will now be a plethera of very late war games in the pipeline so the new MP44's can be used ? ww2 is for me dave. however elitism and snobbery arnt .

Hmm, I think you are making up your own arguments here Nige - I have yet to come across elitism or snobbery in our genre of WW2 enactment!

Shoot me down if you want but i cant see games being sorted just for the Stg44, when in previous games AK47's have been acceptable as a look alike, i don't see why one new gun has ruffled so many feathers, as said we should be happy thats there's another period gun available.
Any way i am using my 44 for Dunkirk, my defense.....it looks like an AK47 which looks like a Stg 44.....so its a look alike

The perfect game for the MP44 is Die Glocke - as late a WW2 game as it's possible to get and so completely authentic!

Yup... But it's even more important to get the damn things downgraded!

Looking at the history of the MP44 it seems like a late war eastern front game is what is really needed.

They were also used extensively by Volksgrenadier units on the western front from 44 onwards.

dave, re your comment about americans being excluded from the arnhem game, thats entirly acceptable due to the battle.same if there was an el alamain game or caen. i am talking about stopping players because they dont have the proper period weapon etc. this seems very unfair. i know of only one SMLE that will be fielded for aerial. i am all for authenticity, but where does it stop? you cant make your own enfield because the bolt handle isnt quite right? how many of the new stens will be seen in the hands of the south staffs for the next market garden game, when we all know that airborne/landing used mkv not mk2 amd mk3? is this ww2 airsoft or ww2 re-enacting.

As far as I am aware I have proposed no such thing Nige - I'm not sure of what your proposition is. If you mean PD's proposal then you will see that the idea was scotched early on in the thread.

As I said at length, pragmatism is the key - we can only do what is practically possible, not what is ultimately ideal.

Incidentally, I don't personally draw any distinction between ww2 airsoft or ww2 reenacting - they both have the same ideals and same background. The approach is sometimes different but boundaries are so blurred now that it's hard to distinguish between them. Give time they will be one and the same. I hope you will see this illustrated on Sunday...

Yes I see whats happened here I think there was a bit of confusion between what CW is talking about with proper realistic units, tactics and uniforms and what PD originaly said with having set weapons for rifle sections.

Our goal for PBI is to have accurate rifle sections.

We can field one accurately at the moment (or two 'airborne' sections of seven men given attrition, landing casualties etc).

From memory we've two or three stens, eight lee enfields, a 2" mortar, two brens and a smattering of 1911s and S&W M10s.

Its a bit of a pipe dream for me too having a re-enactment battle using BB guns but we're slowly getting there. I think Lightning will have a pretty high proportion of bolt actions, a firm command structure for both sides, civvies in the way and set objectives for both sides with time constraints.

Sod all to do with money but I intend to "get" a K98 soon - I have a springer and a plethora of K98 bits - but not the time or skills to marry the two - My original premise did as said - got folks juices flowing - scaley brought something up - I immediately read over my posts again and said "Yeah - your right " but scaley insists of banging the drum still.
I will get my K98 somehow - I will also use it as much as the MP40 and the MP44 because I for one would love to see a battle enacted with riflemen each side and NCOs with SMGs alongside a LMG section being directed properly. We have folks on here who have never done a "real steel" private battle where the weapons were right but what was missing was actually hitting and putting the opfor out. The HUGE advantage airsoft has is that landing a hit is for real. There are trad lads who are making the transition to using airsoft weapons who know what I mean and it was what was missing from the battles.

I'd love - yep LOVE to go out with a section of 9 riflemen, 1 MPi and 1 MG to pit our wits and skills agains 9 riflemen, 1 SMG and 1Bren.
Sod all to do with elitism and snobbery - that's all in your mind scaley. Just for the experience - Just to see if, in miniature and in a safe environment how it was done and how much effort it takes...... and I think with the feedback that's happening here, so do a lot more. What's also important to me is the enjoyment element. when I stop enjoying it I'll stop doing it. Chommers makes a brill point - this isn't for punters (horrid derogatory term) it's for US. And I think the idea is to get more of US which means we can share the enjoyment.

So the die is cast it seems - a new development and a fresh direction. Nothing stands still. I'm a bit excited tell you the truth!

is this ww2 airsoft or ww2 re-enacting.

There are a number of answers to this question, though I think only two are needed.
1) If you joined AFRA or other re-enacting group it is re-enacting if you use the re-enactor exclusion to buy your weapons. This isnt a matter of opinion but of law.
2) If a game is set up to a certain standard of kit and conduct it could be re-enacting. Most CiA games look like re-enacting to me. They detail the history of the real battle. Re-enacting with airsoft guns. It's going to happen more and more.

The setting of a standard of kit for a game is not elitist in the same way setting a location or period for a battle is not elitist. As mentioned above some games will exclude some people because of their chosen uniform. To ask for accurate weaponry is no more elitist than asking for the right uniforms. Anyone could come to such a game they have only to meet the standard. Who meets the standard is not questioned

I've been mulling this over for a bit today and i've finally come up with something that *should* make sense.

I enjoy organising games. I used to get paid to do it when running FFR and FFC years ago - now I do it for nowt for WW2 gaming because I enjoy it! I get to exercise the brain cells and come up with stuff that would be simply impossible to do with the majority of the modern Airsoft crowd (try getting 80 Sunday Airsofters to do as they're told. It makes herding cats look easy by comparison)

By the very nature of WWII, you're going to have events that are Brits Vs Germans or Yanks Vs Germans - Arnhem is the perfect example of this, and you wouldn't do Stalingrad with Waffen-SS Vs Russians. If we do an event based on that bash, then as I only have Waffen-SS or FJ kit for the German side of things, i'm either going to have to get Heer kit, or go Ruskie for it. I think there is a definite place for doing a restricted weapons event, if you look at it from the same point of view.

Now, for exclusivity (I think "elitism" is the wrong word, and it does tend to have bad connotations with regards to arrogance) One of the things that I enjoy immensely is the inclusiveness of what CiA and certain others have achieved. I certainly don't want to chuck all of it away, but I also don't want to get stuck into doing things the same way every time. I want to experiment with the gameplay, I want to see how it can evolve. I don't want to be prescriptive on what people can or cannot bring at every event - but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try an event where we up the realism when it comes to not just on the field play (by that I mean organised sections and firepower), but in the off field part of the weekend as well (zelts and food for example)

Life is about variety

without reading back through the post, i think PD's post said something like 15 riflemen, 2 smg 1 section weapon....... smg done on a rota. to me that was saying if you only have an smg, you get to play when your name comes up, or when its your turn to lead a section, or when you can afford a bolt action. so the blokes who have a well paid regular job can play every game, others not so lucky like myself, ( boom and bust builder) wil have to wait their turn. to me that is elitism, not inclusive. i am not "banging the drum" for no reason, i think ww2 airsoft and ww2 re-enacting are 2 different things. no one fought ww2 with a battery operated weapon(yes i know they didnt use blank firers either but at least they are the real thing, just de-activated) . if you try to fuse the two, you might end up with neither. i am all for upping the level of commitment and effort but not at the cost of excluding people that might be an asset becouse they cant spend 500 quid on a toy.

The truth is that we (CiA) have always excluded people from games. Participants have to follow certain rules and obligations - and it's exactly the same with PBI. Sure, people can't afford stuff - I have severely restricted my participation this year because times are harder, that's just how things are.

But in a sense that's all by-the-by. We have already established that PD's proposal isn't a goer (as proposed) but let's just say it is, hypothetically. PD sets up his game with his rules and people pay and play on that basis. What's wrong with that? PD has got off his arse and done something that 40 players have derived pleasure from. They are all happy. Now, I might have wanted to play and it looked like is might have been a great battle but as I only have an AK47 I couldn't join in. Oh well, there are more than enough games for me to attend during the year. If I had turned up with an AK47 then that would have been hugely disrespectful of the players who put maximum effort (and yes, money) into the game. Has this hypothetical game been elitist? Nah, life is lived by rules. PBI have a clear kit guide and their games expect good kit levels. Are they elitist? Nooo, they are playing how they (and their supporters) want to play - and good on them.

Money - hmmm. WW2 can be very cheap to start off (in relation to 'modern' airsoft). However, it is also a bottomless pit as we all know. Blokes being blokes (sorry girls, I'm being sexist here) can't stop themselves from buying more kit. It's in the genes. "I just need this one piece of kit and I'll never need to buy anything ever again." I've said it myself and it's rubbish. There is always one more bit of kit to buy! If I had been sensible then instead of filling pockets with period chocolate, bank notes, pay books and other frippery then I might very easily have had cash for a custom No4. One makes choices in life and it's not always rational choices!

The WW2 'market' is maturing a little now. Those of us who were in it from the start want something more than running round in costume shooting bits of plastic at other players. That was what we left behind when we departed the modern scene. It sounds big headed but it's true nonetheless, we invented the rules. Now that the market is catered for in the 'popular' end it brings an opportunity to push the boundaries. Every CiA game has pushed a little further each game to see what players are capable of and minimum kit requirement has worked fairly well - self improvement over time has worked. It does take time - it's taken me six years to get my kit together and it would take a wealthy man to buy that in one fell swoop. Way back when we ran the Churchill's game the tag line was 'live like a Lanser for 24hrs' - our aspiration has always been clear. What we have always done is WW2 battle enactment - aspiring to be as realistic as practically possible. Being realists of course there are always compromises - often big ones. So I suppose one might say its more like WW2 in the films rather than WW2 in real life (that's where the filmsim thing came from). But our intentions are that participants feel that they are back 70 years - if only for 8 or 12 or 24 hours!

So, it should come as no surprise that CiA, along with others, continue to push the boundaries and provide battles that we enjoy in the hope and expectation that others will too. PBI's game on Sunday coming is a good illustration of this refinement and specialisation. We want more from a game and we want better - we don't want to pander to the lowest common denominator. Yes, we know it's going to cut 'our' segment of the player base down and it's unlikely we will have more than 50 players a game - and for most games it will be significantly less. Tension, realism, thoughtful and fearful and fearless battling, guts and glory. That's what I want, that's what we all want. Well, at least enough of us to make a game I hope!

Personally i think its the only way the game can move forward. No ones saying this is all going to happen a week on tuesday,it may take up to a year. Having a variaty of games at differant levels would be fantastic for airsoft . Its just like any hobby wether its fishing, golf, or cycleing you'll never get away from the fact that to better yourself at whatever past time you do its going to cost money.Whether its buying a K98,new fishing rod,a new putter,or a new bike. The simple fact is hobbies cost money no matter what hobby you pick always has and always will.