Grass green collar piping wanted.

What are you going to do with it? Collars were not piped in the waffenfarbe during the war. The 'Waffenrock' of 1935 was piped, not only around the collar, but that was a dress tunic.

What are you going to do with it? Collars were not piped in the waffenfarbe during the war. The 'Waffenrock' of 1935 was piped, not only around the collar, but that was a dress tunic.

The pic I've based my impression around shows green piping on the collar of the 1940 "special field grey uniform" (Panzer style) on an Uberfeldwebel tunic in Normandy in 1944 - guess some Panzer Grenadiers followed the panzer uniform look but with their grass green branch of service piping around infanty collar tabs (rather than the pink of the panzers) - not sure if this was official or a one off as so many uniform modifications/alterations of the period seem to have been!

Can you take a pic of the pic and post it up ?

This sounds like Panzer Lehr div. Some of their panzer grenadiers did wear the 1940 special uniform in field grey.
The litzen were usually the generic late war style but mounted on blue green cloth and piped light green. Some had the green waffenfarbe lines in the litzen.

the guy far left in the M43 cap has the standard feldbluse the rest seem to have the 1940 wrap.
The Lehr tended to use a very 'acid' green coloured piping, very vivid indeed. This thread shows a couple of bits, first page 4th or 5th post. http://www.panzergrenadier.net/forum/vi ... be&start=0
You see lots of camo helmet covers and only light belt order, they didn't want to get too far from their Sdkfz251 I guess.
Angel got some of the 'L' cyphers you will need he might tell you where from?
I've only seen the 1940 special uniform worn by 2 panzergrenadier units, Lehr and some parts of 116th 'Windhund' esp. the aufsklarung.
They are not very comfortable to battle in from my experiance, they tend to ride up.
Do you mean Oberfeldwebel? Uberfeldwebel is a Dutch rank I think?
Some unit details here http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... zLPD-R.htm
All in german but you can glean some titbits even if you dont speak a word, like where they were posted.

Cheers for all the info guys - its all good to me! Its that well known pic found in many publications/websites etc, book captions refer to the green piping round the late war standard guards braids army collar patches of the Oberfeldwebel (with binos and full infantry webbing/pouches), its this Windhund impression I'm doing. Just trying for a passable airsoft impression, so many variations in uniform in the late war period after all!

Cheers,
Martyn.
[img]-- attachment is not available --[/img]

Those pictures are indeed quite famous and they are of the Windhund, of the recon section, aufklarung.
The collar patches on the soldier you single out are in fact the standard field grey collar tabs for the special uniform of 1940 or Stug wrap. They are usually seen with panzer skulls on them but an order of '43 said they were to be removed. If you look at the whole series of shots you will see that that was not always done.
The chap at far right front with the patterned scarf actually has black panzer style collar tabs, he also sports a driver badge.
It would be very unusual for the tabs of your soldier to be piped green. The standard colour for the recon was yellow. The picture does not show yellow on your soldier. In 30 years of interest in the German military and 5 years of re-enacting the Windhund I've never seen that type of collar tab piped green. Red, yellow, pink and even white but never green. In the Windhund http://www.windhund.org.uk/ 3 years ago we tried to do this impression. From the series of shots it was impossible to pin down the exact colours used. It seems that no two wearers of the wrap had the same colour piping.
As the aufklarung golden yellow is the correct shade? It would seem not, pink in the 116th as it was a Panzer aufklarung batt. There is a chance the dark colour of your soldiers tabs could be red, the panzer jaeger batt 228 was issued with StugIV. Though PzrJg were pink some crew are known to have kept the red piping from their days as Sturm Artillerie. If they then moved to the Aufk they patches could be red, red does tend to show as black or very dark on B+W film.
I did some tests back then;

This shows a modern wrap rigged with two colours of patches, one on each side. red to the left, pink to the right, notice the shoulder boards are the same colour though obviously not the same shade or cloth

This shows green to the left and pink piped blackboards to the right.
This shows some other colours, the left side being Pzrgren green in the Lehr style.
As you can see we got to a stage where almost any colour can be worn and still fit within the possibilities of this series of photos. Apart from green as that isnt a colour seen on these type of patches.
For this guy I'd go for red from the colours/shades in the photos.

Did you use orthochromatic film Poacher? Even 'panchromatic' films of the time had less sensitivity to the red end of the spectrum than today and this distorts colour rendering - red end being 'underexposed' and so darker on prints and the blue end lighter. Very common practice to use strong yellow filters over the lens to render tone in a blue sky on a summer day, which would of course lighten yellow tones.

Just thought I'd confuse things a bit!

They are simple digital images rendered to sepia but they serve to show the strange nature of colour and how it appears in monochrome. I've done them in B+W, the effect is the same.
For the photo of the guy in question the nature of the film matters not. His piping appears dark, I think it's red and either type of film supports that as a theory. If it were orthochromatic film and the piping were green it would/should look lighter than it does? Esp. the light green used by Pzr.gren. With Panchromatic the effect would be similar to my shots, the red shows about the same shade as the field grey or darker.
It's all a big guess but its a supported big guess. It's a theory and I've given my evidence to support it. It's now open to peer review.

The green ribbon collar tab surrounds don't show up very well on the sepia photo I took of myself either!
As part of the 25th Armoured Infantry in late '44, the 156th branch colour is listed as grass green - but I'm not too worried, its all good fun this historical stuff!

But there is no evidence to support the issue of wraps to 156 Pzr.Gren.Regt. in the 116th. They would be dressed in the more usual 4 pocket feldbluse. The 156 were normally truck mounted rather than the half tracks used by much of 60 Pzr.gren.Regt. Green is the correct colour for panzer grenadiers.
If you want to wear a wrap in an infantry type role then its either Panzer Lehr or the Panzeraufklarungs-Abteilung 16 of the 116th Panzer Div. as discussed above.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'as a part of the 25th armored Infantry in late '44'?
The 156th was always with the 116 panzer div?

I've based my kit on info gleaned from "The German Army 1939-45 (part 5) - Western Front 1943-45" by Nigel Thomas (Osprey Publishing), but there are so many pictures of units/individuals from Panzergrenadier/Panzer Lehr elsewhere on the net wearing the field grey 1940 wrap that I'm happy with the look - if the piping's wrong then I can live with it or remove it. Its for airsoft after all, using repro uniform and kit for a representative look - I just chose the Windhund as I liked the cap badge!

Grass Green piping still wanted.

It's for airsoft after all?
The deliberate rewriting of history, revisionism, is acceptable because it's for airsoft? You put a real unit in you signature then insist you can wear a fantasy uniform. Why bother with WW2 if you have no interest in seeing it done correctly?
Of all the units in the 116th the 156 would be one of the least likely to wear a wrap. I've found a photo of the CO of 60 Pzr.Gren.regt wearing a wrap, he was a Lt.Col and 60regt were partially equiped with half tracks. Troops in half tracks were amongst those who had permissions to wear the wrap. 156 regt only had trucks.
As I've said the only evidence seen is for the Aufklarung and that is good strong photo based. Why not put that in you signature and buy, off the shelf yellow or pink piped tabs, with or without skulls. Then you will be accurate. No grumpy researcher of the Windhund like myself will be able to give you stick.
Should you wish to go further with the Windhund then with your correct uniform you could think about joining this lot. http://www.windhund.org.uk/
Osprey are never safe as a primary reference, the text is usually not bad but the illustrations are shot through with errors and artistic license.
I've not seen one credible image of a field grey wrap with it's collar piped. Even in the panzer troops it was phased out early war.

Nothings being rewritten? There were so many variations, modifications and refits during the war, combined with the destruction of most german records of who was issued with what and when; I'm in agreement that books can contain inaccuracies. However I'm happy with the impression I'm putting together, green piping or not, and pulling people down for something that is a "grey area" anyway isn't very helpful. I'm sure the fact I wear modern boots may upset a few purists too. I'm not trying to say I'm the definitive recreator of a Windhund soldier - far from it - I'm just making an effort to have a reasonable level of kit for any WW2 games I attend, BASED on available information/photos on that regiment that I have seen - photosim if you like! We all have our own views.

I think the point is that if your going to have to spend money on kit to make it generic then its better to spend it on something that isn't a grey area or very rare.

For your first set of kit its better to get stuff that is more likely to be correct.

Thank you Yith.
Please share.
Show me the photo of the 156th with a wrap and a green, or any other colour piped collar. You do mean collar and not collar tabs? In fact show me a photo of a 156 grenadier in a wrap at all.
I've been studying and researching the Windhund for 5 years and have very good contacts with people who's research goes back much further. One friend was in contact with veterans of the division. I've never seen 156 grenadiers in wraps.
What you are doing is just plain inaccurate, it is a rewrite, you are bending the facts to suit your aims, it's like confirmation bias in science.
The facts do not support your ideas, you are guessing. You should be able to support any claims with evidence. It really isnt a grey area, there is nothing to support your ideas for this uniform. I'm not pulling you down, I'm trying to steer you into a realistic and supported uniform rather than a fanasty.
I have had this arguement many times over the years on this forum. I'm trying to steer people to factual uniforms, why spend the money on rubbish when the same money will buy you the correct stuff?
156 in a wrap is unknown. Aufklarung 116 or PzrJgr 228 even Pzr.Gren.Regt.60[1st batt. obviously] in a wrap is viable. We are not talking a sea change here. I dont get why you would want to stand the chance of being wrong when it is SO easy to be correct?
I am of course happy to change my views if there is good evidence that I'm wrong. Bias and opinion should not let us lose sight of the truth.

why spend the money on rubbish when the same money will buy you the correct stuff?

I think this is the key thing here... its not "stitch nazism" or being nasty...

It's not about an Airsofter/Re-enactor divide. There shouldn't be a divide.

It's just good advice from someone who knows...

It's not about an Airsofter/Re-enactor divide. There shouldn't be a divide.

There cant be, certainly not for those who are AFRA members.
Like it or not you are re-enactors, you have to be.
Airsofting as done by CIA is re-enacting, re-enacting with airsoft weapons. Why name events after battles and operations if they are not an attempt to get the feel and dress of those actions. It is more relaxed, open and accessible than most re-enacting but dont be fooled, many here take the history and accuracy very seriously.
Look at the regs for the CIA game in July, no camo. That really is turning into the slogan for the year, in re-eacting circles too. Plain old field grey is this years colour.

Think we're losing sight - this is a wanted thread. I'm an airsofter not a reenactor and the 2 ARE different. If each game is about authentic reenactment then each side would wear uniforms of units authentic to that particular battle - and I know that isn't the case, and if it were you'd have very few players. Then you'd have to use period equipment for cooking, no mobile phones or laptops on site etc. also 20/30 rd mags in Thompsons, 32 in an MP40 etc. How many go for this? About zero. My impression is as authentic as most other players - and we are PLAYERS! I use a K98 and an MP40, not an M14 or MP5 etc as some do.
I believe from books 25th Armd. infantry consisted of 2,8,10,11,29,35,60,104,110,111,115,119,125,156,192 and 304 regts, some or all of which WERE issued the grey panzer uniform and all had the grass green branch colour on the Western Front after 6.6.1944. Not Pink (1/2/3/7/8/12 armoured) or yellow (1/5/12/14recce/recon)This is published information I came by easily. As with other branches piping may or may not have been worn.
So its not fantasy, history is open to interpretation based on the information available. If proof is forthcoming that no soldier of the Windhund EVER wore the wrap with green piping then I'll leave it off. Until then I intend to enjoy WW2 airsoft as a game. Because you don't think it was the case doesn't mean it wasn't .
Thanks to those who PM'd me on this.
Can we leave this as a wanted thread please? Life's too short.