I am in the prosses of startind a new unit , and I was woundering if a :Heer serves shirt , M40 field grey trouser, and a tan&water or a splinter patern smock would be and exeptible for a panzergrenadier unit of the 21st panzer division in normandy 1944 . I shall also have an MP40 and the regular field gear . (note this is jus a starting point , and later I wold like to add an M40 field grey tunic.)
I'd suggest the '43 style keilhosen for that unit at that time of the war and perhaps the '42 or '43 style tunic when you get around to it.
Why? They were a refitted outfit, formed from the remains of the DAK unit, they got the latest camo, the sumpfmuster smocks [lots of Normandy photos to support this] and by this stage of the war most of the early styles had been issued. Not all but the stocks were bound to be low, plus, as they were coming from africa few would have been carrying 'old stock' tunics that had been issued to them before.
This is a handy little book, even has piccys of the 21st in just the kit you mention. Cheap too.
Soldiers in Normandy: The Germans (Histoire & Collections Mini-guides 3rd Wave) http://www.amazon.co.uk/Soldiers-Norman ... 837&sr=1-9
aka Stigroadie
AFRA
better by design
"Truth is a shining goddess, always veiled, always distant, never wholly approachable, but worthy of all the devotion of which the human spirit is capable. "
Get the m40 tunic *before* the smock, its unlikely (read nigh on impossible) you would be issued the smock without the tunic, i've also seen no photos of it being worn by whermacht troops without the tunic (although i assume it must have been done as i've seen waffen ss in russia do this)
Get the basics first, gucci camo later.
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
whilst I agree with Gadge, The cost of a smock is half the price of a tunic so If you are on a tight budget I can see it makes sense to go for the smock first.
“I wanted to come to the Volga at a specific location at a specific city. By chance it carries the name of Stalin himself. So don’t think I marched there for this reason – it could carry another name – but because there is a very important goal... this goal I wanted to take – and you know – we are very modest, we have it already."
Adolf Hitler, November 1942
"Comrades, Red Army men, commanders and political workers, men and women guerrillas! It is on your perseverance, staunchness, fighting skill and readiness to discharge your duty to the country that the defeat of the German-fascist army and the liberation of the Soviet land from the Hitlerite invaders depend! We can and must clear the Soviet land of Hitlerite vermin."
Joseph Stalin, November 1942
Spearheads tunics are about £35 IIRC and perfectly adequate for airsoft.
Smocks were about £30 when i bought one, maybe more...
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
I thought that most of the stuff from spear head was inacurit
No less inaccurate than wearing a smock over a shirt rather than getting a tunic first... 
Depends what you want it for, if its airsoft then its perfectly fine, if its bang on re-enacting then if you want to be accurate, get your feldgrau first.
I say this again, camo in the heer was rare once you get past the zelt, tunics however were universal
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
I was going by SueSue66 prices for Sturm made stuff, smocks are £25 tunics are £50!
“I wanted to come to the Volga at a specific location at a specific city. By chance it carries the name of Stalin himself. So don’t think I marched there for this reason – it could carry another name – but because there is a very important goal... this goal I wanted to take – and you know – we are very modest, we have it already."
Adolf Hitler, November 1942
"Comrades, Red Army men, commanders and political workers, men and women guerrillas! It is on your perseverance, staunchness, fighting skill and readiness to discharge your duty to the country that the defeat of the German-fascist army and the liberation of the Soviet land from the Hitlerite invaders depend! We can and must clear the Soviet land of Hitlerite vermin."
Joseph Stalin, November 1942
Thank you for all of you advise , I will be buting all of my field grey stuff first , maby then I will buy a smock , can anyone tell me if the M40 uniform will work for the 21st panzer unit in 1944, I will be a Panzer grenadier ?
Yes, M36 M40 or M43 are all fine, all were still in use right up to the end of the war. There are plenty of original photos with troops wearing a mix of all three
“I wanted to come to the Volga at a specific location at a specific city. By chance it carries the name of Stalin himself. So don’t think I marched there for this reason – it could carry another name – but because there is a very important goal... this goal I wanted to take – and you know – we are very modest, we have it already."
Adolf Hitler, November 1942
"Comrades, Red Army men, commanders and political workers, men and women guerrillas! It is on your perseverance, staunchness, fighting skill and readiness to discharge your duty to the country that the defeat of the German-fascist army and the liberation of the Soviet land from the Hitlerite invaders depend! We can and must clear the Soviet land of Hitlerite vermin."
Joseph Stalin, November 1942
spearhead smocks will cost £48 delivered at todays exchange rate. Much better quality smocks are vailable from both us and SOF for £50. I have some spearheads smocks and the fabric is very thin, actually better for re-enacting than airsoft because they will take less punishment , standing on a display, from my limited experiance of airsoft you actually need good strong kit, ive being wearing chinese trosuers for almost 2 years re-enacting, 1st airsoft event and i ripped a pair.
, ive being wearing chinese trosuers for almost 2 years re-enacting, 1st airsoft event and i ripped a pair.
was funny though 
I ripped my SoF mustards from fly to belt loop first time I airsofted in them (well, to be fair they started tearing in the car on the way). Took them to a tailor who restitched them and they've seen some abuse since and been fine.
, ive being wearing chinese trosuers for almost 2 years re-enacting, 1st airsoft event and i ripped a pair.
was funny though
Are you always in attendance when someone rips (or burns!) the arse out of their trousers Helga? 
When we were a Kingdom it was run by a King
When we were an Empire it was run by an Empress
Now we're a country we're run by a..........
I say this again, camo in the heer was rare once you get past the zelt
As a rule I would agree with your statement 100%, the 21st Panzer in Normandy is one exception to the rule. Smocks esp. sumpfmuster, were quite common in this unit at this time and show up in many photos. There are several which show British airborne prisoners being escorted by 21st Pzr through Saint Pierre sur Dives and most of the grenadiers in shot have smocks. The book I listed above includes two such photos.
If Sniper is to base his impression/load out on the 21st at the time of the invasion, a smock would not be an unusual part of it.
Smocks were issued before an operation and collected afterwards I'm told. Elements of the 21st were on night exersise on D-Day and could well have been issued the smocks for that.
That said the book also has a picture of a panzer crew and the officer is wearing a jump smock! We cant recommend that as an authentic look for panzer commanders.
aka Stigroadie
AFRA
better by design
"Truth is a shining goddess, always veiled, always distant, never wholly approachable, but worthy of all the devotion of which the human spirit is capable. "
Aye but my recommendation was to get a feldgrau tunic before a smock, smocks may have been 'common' on 21st panzer.. being issued a smock but no tunic i would have thought unheard of.
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
No arguement with that, thats why I quoteds the section I did.
There seems to have been a weather change since this time last year. Way back then Brown was good enough for brit and grey was ok for Jerry. Now a guy in another country should be sure his wools are squared away before anything. I agree, but it is a change from 12 months ago when a guy with a smock would have been well up there and welcomed with open arms.
Well done, whats next? Cutting down on all the rank and the bling? I hope so.
aka Stigroadie
AFRA
better by design
"Truth is a shining goddess, always veiled, always distant, never wholly approachable, but worthy of all the devotion of which the human spirit is capable. "
I think the fundamental difference is thus poacher.
A chap turning up in a brown boiler suit or grey trousers and flecky parka is *still* just as welcome as ever.
However someone asking advice on what is *right* is encouraged to invest their initial outlay correctly rather than in some 'creative history' way.
Initial counts as stil very cool and in force, i'm just trying to advise someone who is potentially going to spend hundreds to get the right stuff.
If he wants to do 'cheap and airsoft counts as' i'll still point him in the direction of the market stall for a £5 flecky parka and pair of grey moleskins!
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
Second what Gadge says, no change in policy - it's up the players to decide the level of accuracy and/or aim point, not for other to tell then what to wear.
If chaps asks for specific information then fair enough, give best advice with some choices to help match budget.
