Camo... do we over do it?

i were what i can find as a rule camo or not .mostley scruffy very authentic

The Germans however are the main ones to over do camo. The FJ are generally ok since smocks were standard issue and helmet covers common.

By far the worst however are the SS in both airsoft and reenacting. I guess because alot of people are drawn to it by the cool look of the camo so they use as much as possible. A fair amount of camo is ok as the SS did have more camouflage clothing issued than any other force but field grey was still a common sight. One of my pet hates is all over camo clothing and is something you often see the SS doing.

Forgive my simplistic view on life, i choose to portray the Waffen SS and as far as I'm aware they wore, as stated issued camo...... so why have we now become offenders for wearing to much? yet to portray FJ or Heer with or without is OK,I like what i wear so thats my only priority, you like what you wear and i respect that, but am not prepared to be slated by others for my choice.
I do worry a little that if some have issues about those who portray WWII SS in WWII camo in WWII scene perhaps this isnt the hobby for them.

PS The FG are now taking on a new role............Fashion Police...

That was my thoughts as well..FJ in a camo jump smock and helmet cover ok but a SS solder to have helmet cover and a smock is over doing it..Peadot over jacket and trousers over doing..its only done because they think it looks cool..cool this cool that..Greys are best.Greys look better..All this is, is peoples pet hates and what they prefer nothing to do with being Historical

As I said a fair amount of camo is fine for the SS, they did have more than anyone else. However sometimes people seem to equate the SS being issued camo on a large scale to mean they all had it so they can wear whatever they like and be accurate. Something that simply isn't true. I'm not talking about smocks & helmet covers being to much, or peadot suits but when you have people wearing the whole lot at the same time.

Its your right to wear what you want, true, but it doesn't mean that I have to like it.

That was my thoughts as well..FJ in a camo jump smock and helmet cover ok but a SS solder to have helmet cover and a smock is over doing it..Peadot over jacket and trousers over doing..its only done because they think it looks cool..cool this cool that..Greys are best.Greys look better..All this is, is peoples pet hates and what they prefer nothing to do with being Historical

Couldn't agree more Dave. The Waffen SS were issued with camouflage items on a large scale, even before the war, end of strory. In my opinion, Waffen SS in combat look wrong without camo! Looking "cool" is just a by product of the accuracy of the kit people choose to wear!

If people want to wear Feldgrau or battledress and not wear any camo items in the name of authenticity, then fair play to them. Just don't ram your opinions down other peoples' throats and expect them to do the same.

WOAH FOLKS! realitycheck - and - wait for it - Stop Press.................

You've turned into re-enactors!

I don't think you lads are being personally slated or picked at - I've been at this a long time and once upon a time there was no camo! People wore Hungarian cam and Austrian parkas!!!!! I sh1t you not!!!!!! Then the first wonderful copies came in and it was only the lucky/rich/connected that could obtain and wear them - Gradually more items and more wonderful patterns were introduced and so - naturally everyone took up the flag and got themselves to camo.......

What I think the crux of this is - Is the poor wearing of too much camo. I may be wrong of course but that's just my take. I know my onions (Thanks Dave for putting up an answer to Gadge - I didn't get back to this thread last night - Damn you Skype....Damn you Red Orchestra!) and I attend a fair amount fo shows - There are some absolute winners in the sh1t camo stakes bimbling around - There are more however, decently attired bods wearing camo in context and in good combinations.

I think the return to "chocolate box" Germans (feldgrau) is good - I think the wearing of combat clothing and equipment on combat displays and in "battle" is also good. What's well Shetland is when you get the armed to the teeth combat knife in boot/smocktop, fully smocked and dirtied up Aryan warrior sat drinking tea from a tin mug outside his British 160lber......... In the field a soldier could very well have a smock, peadot suit and all the trappings....... Of he was lucky enough to survive, when withdrawn for delousing and some R&R he would be bloody glad to shed his tarnmuster and get into a decent, clean uniform to try to pull a fraulein or two and get some biers in!!!!!!!

My answer, from experience and observation is still - Yes - SOME folks overdo it - but more importantly they employ it out of context..... The German troops especially made geat use of camo, pioneered it really (Herr Schick et al) and developed it hugely (Leibermuster with it's black carbon impregnated patches to defeat IR night gear!) paving the way for modern useage.... So I don't wanna see it disappear - yhat would be a complete travesty and a misrepresentation - Balance..... (I'm gonna get all Jedi here aren't I?) Everything needs to be balanced and as with this forthcoming Boursin tunnel gig - Do you think it merits wearing smocks or parkas etc in an indsutrial complex? Soldiers didn't buy this kit so would their Standing Orders include tarnmuster? Would they have been issued a parka or a greatcoat? It speaks for itself dunnit? Boursin (Yeah Chommers - I know it's Borzsysin but Boursin is more fun innit?) ought to be a feldgrau event cos it's in keeping with the surroundings......

Pleae don't get precious about things - Dog Green nailed it the other evening - He said he thinks we tend to over analyse everything - And by golly gumdrops he's right..... We'll be on to fat paras and old shocktroops next.....

Nice to see the debate opening up.

I know when i started doing heer i totally over did it. My first purchases after the feldgrau were a splinter smock, helmet cover and the obligatory zeltbahn, oh and a reversable parka which was definitely bought 'cos it looks cool' as i walk the dog in it

Now my personal feelings on this (and i've reserved this til now to let the debate flourish in its own right) is that on the whole it's not done too much (maybe a bit too much matching patterns when folk start wearing peadot hats and covers that never existed or denison trousers that never existed) but... i dont think on the airsoft scene its too bad.

PD makes a good point and had he have been at Die Glocke he'd have seen our entire SS contingent in plain field grey and i think maybe one or two helmet covers as it fitted the scenario better. I think that in itself shows that the SS lads (who i dont think should feel persecuted here, its a debate nothing more) are perfectly capable and knowledgeable enough to dress in the appropriate way for the battle on the whole.

I think my personal fave camo look (and largely underdone in wwii airsoft) is the dot trousers and grey tunic. Thats to me is absolutely classic, looks very authentic as well with late war impression.

When we first started this CiA thing we had to divvy out roles. Gadge and Yith had Brit kit so that was sorted, Headshot had US so that was the Allies done. I had yank kit and Old 'Un had none so we both opted to head up the German side. Bugger me I had a nightmare trying to decide what kit to get in a reasonable budget. At that stage we weren't even thinking of accurate units for the scenario (the Bulge) - all we were concerned with was getting enough players to play German!

In the end I plumped for what I thought was a great look and based my kit on an illustration of a major on the cover of an Osprey book, complete with tucked up smock! I still have all that kit now (although the trousers went up in flames at Churchills ), indeed it forms the core of my German kit still.

Anyhoo, as Gadge has said - this is a debating thread so no need for chaps to get too aeriated. There is no right and wrong when debating personal opinion!

I dont know if it is the case but there might be perhaps an analogy with your first AEG.

My first shooter was a G36c... within days i had three or four ris rials on it and by the end of the second month I had about 4kg of sights, foregrips, torchs and lasers on it. It was new and exciting and i wanted all the gucci stuff.

Playing a themed game as russian merc we bought aks (with very little room for easy upgrades and accessories) and about the same time i playeed an open day in which my red dot went down as the battery had been left on overnight. I took it off as it was useless and then realised that in the day at phoenix woodland.. the torch was useless too. So that came of, and the foregrip i never used, then the laser etc etc... the gun now weighed about 1kg less and was no less effective. With that in mind i started stripping down my loadout to what worked rather than carrying the kitchen sink 'in case'.

I think for me its the same with WWII impressions, my first heer one... well i wanted it all. Combat awards, NCO stripes, cufftitles (a staggering *three* on my first tunic lol!), camo covers, a bayonet despite carrying an smg... the list goes on. Now again stripped it down to have three 'minimal' outfits rather than one weighed down with accessories as playing more games meant i didn't have to use it all at one... each bit of kit would have its time.

Its the same with my brit kit... i used to go out deked with *everything* on my webbing that 'on paper' the brit airlanding soldier carried but trawling through period pics of arnhem shows soldiers as likely to be in combat with just a 303 bandolier as a full set of webbing. A recent micro debate about small packs and the like re-inforced this for me. While its a good bit of kit looking for pics of it worn in combat i was staggered by the ammount of pics of guys who not only had dumped their small pack but had also dumped all of thier webbing.

Perhaps the question should have been 'kit - do we overdo it?' I know i do

For me WW2 was not a war with camo clothing in any great quantity and I never will see it any other way.
To me US is OD, German Field Grey, Brit khaki.

Once everyone wears camo it starts to look to modern to me and tends to annoy me a bit.
I have a Helmet net for one of my M1's but it is annoying as hell, so as such I suspect many troops would ditch them as they snag up on any twig within 60ft of you or is it just that I have a big head

Perhaps the question should have been 'kit - do we overdo it?' I know i do

Yes, same here. I've lost count of the number of times I've dumped kit a lunchtime because it just pissed me off. Doesn't stop me loading it all up again the next time though.

I think my personal fave camo look (and largely underdone in wwii airsoft) is the dot trousers and grey tunic. Thats to me is absolutely classic, looks very authentic as well with late war impression.

Thats one of my favourites as well. If we do an Arnhem game I'd probably go like that with my Hohenstaufen kit (see I'm not anti camo ).

I have a Helmet net for one of my M1's but it is annoying as hell, so as such I suspect many troops would ditch them as they snag up on any twig within 60ft of you or is it just that I have a big head

I have the same problem with the net on my PAVN helmet, every damn bush I walk though I turn around and its hanging from a branch behind me.

I think for me its the same with WWII impressions, my first heer one... well i wanted it all. Combat awards, NCO stripes, cufftitles (a staggering *three* on my first tunic lol!), camo covers, a bayonet despite carrying an smg... the list goes on. Now again stripped it down to have three 'minimal' outfits rather than one weighed down with accessories as playing more games meant i didn't have to use it all at one... each bit of kit would have its time.

I can certainly identify with that, Gadge - the kit was new to me, and it was like walking into a sweet shop! After a while I ditched my Sumfmuster helmet cover and smock (in fact, I don't think I ever wore either), plus various awards, etc.

However, as regards kit items (as opposed to bling and camo), I have been building it up steadily, because…

Its the same with my brit kit... i used to go out deked with *everything* on my webbing that 'on paper' the brit airlanding soldier carried but trawling through period pics of arnhem shows soldiers as likely to be in combat with just a 303 bandolier as a full set of webbing. A recent micro debate about small packs and the like re-inforced this for me. While its a good bit of kit looking for pics of it worn in combat i was staggered by the ammount of pics of guys who not only had dumped their small pack but had also dumped all of their webbing.

Perhaps the question should have been 'kit - do we overdo it?' I know i do

…perhaps the Germans were different, because in almost all of the photos I see, they are still wearing full field kit.

Something else to consider; In the war there were only actually approx 1 Million SS troops and approx 17 Million non SS troops (all arms). so thats an approx 17:1 ratio of feildgrau/blau/etc to SS camo. (these are very ball-park figure BTW)

Now in WW2 airsoft, the SS to Heer ratio is more like 3:1. So naturally it appears that there is a disproportionately high amount of Camo in the field compared to actual history.

FJ is also portayed a lot more than Heer in WW2 airsoft and again historically actual numbers of FJ were much much lower, even lower than SS I'd think!?

People are portraying their given units pretty authenically these days IMO, it's just more people are portraying units who did wear more camo items which is why it may appear to some that there is too much sometimes!

As has already been said, it horses for courses really and these days people tend to wear what is appropriate for the game/scenario. i.e; woodland game with SS units = lots of camo, urban/tunnels game = no, or very little camo, as was evident at Die Glocke.

Personally I think that if the camo is correct for the given impression and the time frame of a given scenario then I have no problem with it. I do personally like to keep my camo to minimum but that is just my personally preference. I don't like helmet covers much but purely because they just spoil the iconic shape and look of the german Stalhelm !

Spot on observation there i guess.

We seen to have strong contingents for brit airborne, line inf and commando, us airborne and line inf, ss and fj but the one under represented NWE group is the german infantryman of the Heer (excluding units like the LFD).

At CR there were about nine guys in GD kit but thats the most I think i've even seen in one place.

Agreed Gadge. We have 17 people on the list of Landser Heer Infanterie, but getting even half that number together seems difficult.

maybe a Heer vs Us or brit line inf event is in order?

Tends to be an event that gets folk buying kit for it!

We have the gear Gadge, but for some of us its time off work and in my case transport. 1 car which the missues uses and she works shifts and my motorbike equals me gtting to very few games. I'm itching to show off my landser kit and my SS kit. God knows we are not adversed to travel, but much of the time its just not possible. Hence my non attendance at CIA and PBI games sorry a bit of diversion but I think thats why its so hard to get all of us together. Ah for a job were I don't have to work weekends, and every major holiday.

Perhaps the question should have been 'kit - do we overdo it?' I know i do

I think we all do.

Quite possibly, in defining most WW2 uniform looks the key items tend to be

Head, Helmet or cap,
Jacket or top,
Belt, straps and ammo pouches assembly (think of the German or the British webbing sets and how important they are to establishing those looks),

Trousers and boot are not usually so important so long as they don't break the illusion (but very nice to have otherwise something non-distinct and of a 'suitable character').

Chuck in:

A bag for things that won't fit pockets/pouches (a suitable gas bag/haversack for the look)

Water bottle/canteen (it is a team rule, no one goes onto the battlefield without a full reasonably sized container of water, we have all seen enough heatstroke/dehydration casualties being carried off ta kindly )

While a bit "farby" it probably good enough to pass the glance test and have everything you need for a days gaming (bar the mask, weapons, spare ammo, loader, nibbles).

But being (in the main) slightly geeky blokes, we just have to gather more kit, more accurate kit, all of it! and show it off! like it's some genetic imperative (I'm guilty of that as well, I have enough pirate larp gear to clothe a full crew!). Its sometimes difficult to remember that we are playing a days game, not marching off into Russia and expecting to be away till the winter!

Though seeing someone in full kit, is always impressive.

Kit or Camo, you know I don't think we do over do it. anything which brings in new blood is to be welcomed. Personally I prefer to see camo or kit which is correct to the period, rather than the metallica t shirt brigade. Every one of us started somewhere and the need to get it right comes with that territory. Bring on the kit I say.
We are all kit obsessives, otherwise we wouldn't be on here arguing the minute of the web belt/blanco hobnails,badge placement we love it.

In answer to the original question ‘do we wear too much camo’, in the context of WW2 I think yes. Camo was in the minority there can be no question about that. But in airsoft events we are portraying small unit actions, often from large famous campaigns featuring well supplied elite units. We tend not to portray line units in rear echelon postings where camo is unlikely to be worn at all. Also we tend to portray late war rather than early war when there was much more camo available. We could have this debate all year I guess, but my fundamental point is does it really matter? Even in airsoft camo tends to be in context and correctly worn and I don’t think from my limited experience that it has detracted from a single event I’ve been to.
I would prefer to see some more early war events with almost no camo, but that’s because I find the early war actions interesting rather than anything else. If you want to wear camo then good luck to you. I will confess to a love of splinter pattern at this point, not convinced that it is hugely effective in British woodland, but I like it.
I should also like to add a note of caution if I may. I’m very new to this WW2 business, but I’ve been re-enacting for 19 years now (I really must get a proper life one day). WW2 airsoft is outstanding on every level. You have a superb attitude. Everyone is welcome and welcomed. Kit is shared and everyone mucks in together with no antagonism that I have seen anywhere. Once you start to get obsessed with accurate kit I think you will loose all that. I’ve seen it happen before and it is very sad and dispiriting.
So for what it is worth I say keep it all inclusive. If you want to wear camo then wear it. The attitude and game play are what will make or break events, not the accuracy of costumes.