Interesting question and comment on the PST forum:
http://www.panzergrenadier.net/forum/vi ... 53&t=12688
meyer: Private battles - where have they gone?
Pug42: Where to start!?
1) A thankless task to organise one - lots of bureaucracy theses days (H&S, Risk assessments, Insurance, permissions etc)
2) A financial risk to take, attendances have got lower over past few years
3) Disagreements as to what type of event to put on - a full blown tactical 'living history' weekend or at the other end of the scale an out-and-out blatfest? The two 'camps' do not see eye to eye!
4) WW2 Airsoft seems to have made a lot of progress and I'm sure has diverted a lot of folk who would formerly have done these reenactment jollies...
Pug42 is right - we have taken up the mantle to a degree. From the neo 'living history' that Comrades in Arms steers close to through to the blastfest (in reenactment terms) of a few other events - one way or another the spectrum seems to be complete. Or would have done had PD's planned December event gone ahead.
And I think this reinforces my feelings that this 'new way reenacting' Comrades in Arms has been spearheading for the last three years is the way forward. Trying to persuade hard core 'traditional' reenactors to give airsoft WW2 battles a go is a lost cause. BUT, by osmosis, by word of mouth, by greater awareness, many of the traditional the-gun-has-to-go-bang-to-make-it-real are coming to the view that that isn't necessarily the case. You don't need guns to go bang to get an adrenaline rush or feel you are 'there'. Many 'traditional' reenactors are coming round to the idea of our type of WW2 private battles. Sad to say they aren't particularly vocal about it on forums (for fear of ridicule?) but it is happening and can only grow.
Looking at how the diary is filling up I'd say 2010 will have the greatest variety of private battle styles and scenarios seen to date. They ALL need your support. That the country is gripped by recession isn't helping - that's true. But I would make the plea to players that, when cash is short, attending games should be the priority - not the endless kit collecting all too evident. Game organisers WILL make compromises if it means the success or failure of an event. Most games have minimal kit requirements that can be begged or borrowed. And a note to all new players or those thinking of dipping your toe in the water - despite what you might read on the forum with chaps going a bit bonkers over 'correct' kit levels (heh, we all do it 
), these are not and never have been required standards of dress to attend games. No one is looked down on for wearing minimal kit nor slagged off - for it is you who has made the event possible. Everyone has to start somewhere and there are no awards for the best dressed player - they get killed just the same as everyone else. 
Anyhoo - discuss!
i agree with what you are saying cw i've only been doing this for 1 year now and i like the way cia games are going
times are hard at the moment but i always try and get the kit thats needed. i hope that more hard core re-enactors join us
Good post C-W. 
I too would like to see people being less worried about kit levels and badge placement. The most important thing is to get out there and take part! All too often, you see someone moaning that they can't afford to come to an event yet, they post in "latest acquisitions" about the Spitfire they've just bought. People will always strive for nice kit but, it can be built over time. Too many think that they have to be spot on just to come to an event.
I've seen many people with what some consider to be "inaccurate" kit get into the spirit of the game much better than some with 100% accurate kit! At the last couple of training days I've been involved in, I've seen smiling faces all round after a day where hardly a shot was fired, which was very satisfying. It's slowly starting to happen, that players are grasping the concept that trigger time isn't the most important thing (just like it is in real combat).
When I want your opinion - I'll tell you what it is!
Thoroughly agree there CW... Reenactment battles arnt cheap plus they've just finished a year of shows and on top of that money has been hard to find this year for alot of people so some thing has to be knocked on the head.
The same applies for us..a days gameing for £25 sounds great but add your traveling and food costs and now with most games coming up haveing kit lists of some sort...a one day game may cost around £150 plus.. and for a newby £200+ for some thing he/she may never wear agine.
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A kit lending / borrowing thread for events is always a positive step. I am always proud of our community when people are prepared to lend weapons and kit to new guys whom they've never even met before. I'm sure many reenactors would love a CiA / PBI / AGS-style game if they gave it a try.
You've got nothing to ein, zwei, drei, vier
A kit lending / borrowing thread for events is always a positive step. I am always proud of our community when people are prepared to lend weapons and kit to new guys whom they've never even met before. I'm sure many reenactors would love a CiA / PBI / AGS-style game if they gave it a try.
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I think the points being missed a little....A kit lending/borrowing thread will only work up to a certain point,take the Kasserine pass game to have 15/20 Germans in at least 50% DKA uniform..at least 15/17 Germans have got to buy some form of DkA uniform.Then you've got the Monte Cassino game.. have the Germans who want to play got to go out and buy a FJ Mediterranean rig out.Most of the players in our group have only just got there greys peadots and smocks sorted.Then on top of that work for some of them is'ent looking good.
PS..I've been and got a full DAK uniform for the Kasserine pass game also a FJ uniform for Monte Cassino..But not all can or will, just buy for one game,my point being making good of what we have.
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Oh yes, we do need some standard games with the usual impressions that people have. More generic ones like NWE german and British airborne.
Hopefully as well as the more specialist stuff we've seen pushed for 2010 there will be more standard stuff as well. PBI's Op Freshman is a good example where it's possible to play as either side without having one of the more esoteric uniforms. I'm sure there will be more!
The Kasserine Pass game is somewhat of an exception, obviously. I am referring to many recent games where people have put kit and guns available, to encourage people new to airsoft (or people still building up new kit) to attend.
As with Russian games, it's a catch 22 - nobody will buy the kit until a game is organised, and people are loath to organise a game if they're relying on people getting kit. (And as Chommers mentioned, it was the same situation with the very first CiA event - but eventually, it had to happen.)
Regarding the KP game, Chris (dog green 1) is going to come up with some good kit deals, and we've got 8 months to build it up.
You've got nothing to ein, zwei, drei, vier
There's at least 2 planned CiA events for next year, after Boryszyn, when the kit people already have will be more than suitable. 
Hopefully, the divergence into more "niche" theatres of war, such as the Eastern Front, North Africa, etc, will lead to more battles in these theatres in the future. Otherwise, as DB says, it's money down the drain, which many can ill afford, for a one off set of kit. I know the CiA team is very excited about organising many more Russian themed events, now that people have embraced the idea.
At least we don't have the expense of paying for blanks and weapon hire like reenactors do. Also, the variety of WW2 events on offer to us is much greater than that to reenactors, which keeps things fresh, rather than fighting the battles of Normandy time and time again.
When I want your opinion - I'll tell you what it is!
Exactly, Pete. To buy kit for one game only would be daft - having Russian kit now opens a whole new load of battles. Similarly, with DAK / tropical, you can have any battle from the north African and Mediterranean theatres.
You've got nothing to ein, zwei, drei, vier
As many of you know we do a fair bit of re-enacting .I was invited to one of the private battles. But from what I have herd about people not taking there hits (no IM not sure how that works either) and from you tube films showing guys letting round after round. I can not see the appeal.
But I strongly suspect it’s more about the social the night before and the change of there being no public to worry about. Now I can see the appeal of that 
. To my knowledge there are two private battles before Xmas.
theres nowt so Permanent as temporary
Oh yes, we do need some standard games with the usual impressions that people have. More generic ones like NWE german and British airborne.
Hopefully as well as the more specialist stuff we've seen pushed for 2010 there will be more standard stuff as well. PBI's Op Freshman is a good example where it's possible to play as either side without having one of the more esoteric uniforms. I'm sure there will be more!
This IS and always has been what Gunman does. Plenty of stuff going on all the time
Have I missed a change of heart guys? if so thats fantastic, maybe we could run an event together again??? Ive not seen most of the CIA/PBI crowd for weekend war since D-Day 
I personally have never seen any difference between reenactors and airsofters, they all have one main thing in common which is enjoying their weekend off in uniform and playing soldiers. Me being one of them!!
Heer Schmidt
I think possibly the thrust of my post was slightly unclear - I complicated it by making more than one point!
Anyhoo, summarised as:
1. Where have all the private battles gone? They are alive and well and here in the airsoft side of reenactment.
2. Plenty of choice - diverse scenarios and game styles. You can choose between hard graft or blatfest (and shades in between) - much the same choice as with trad reenactment private battles of old.
As an aside:
3. BTW airsofters, stop frittering your money on 'better' breadbags or badges if it means you won't have enough cash to actually play.
4. BTW noobs, ignore all the anal collecting stuff on the forum - it hasn't got much to do with WW2 airsoft battles. Don't be intimidated - book up and play!
I guess there's a level at which you could class your participation in the ww2 airsoft community.
I haven't actually participated in one of Josh's games fully, however I see how it differs from Cia and PBI games.
Pictorially, I would represent it as follows:
Airsoft Open Day ||||||||||||||||||||||||WW2 Airsoft |||||||||||||||||||||||||Re-enactment Private Battles
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--------------------------------------------------------Gunman------------------CiA----PBI--------------------------------------------
Not meaning to upset or offend anyone's games, the views are my own personal views
Gunman games encapsulate the spirit of ww2 airsoft, great for folk who are new to the game, or for those who are a bit more serious who want to a great ww2 themed game, and for those Regulars who enjoy the game for what it is. Player's stand side by side with other factions in the same game, but have a great game with their fellow players and mates.
CiA games are a bit more tightly themed, however they still have a degree of lee-way for new comers, or for those who do not have everything spot on. To the same degree, re-enactors see CiA games as an opportunity to use their level of kit, and manage to participate by actually shooting eachother, rather than a blank firing stand-off across a wood (each to their own). The games are more about Creating the immersion of a particular scenario, but still encompassing the Spirit of ww2 airsoft, where you can play alongside and indeed against your mates.
PBI games have been commented as being *very* particular. A bit more themed than CiA games, in which case people are usually told what unit to portray, and the scales of the battles are small... a day's game would be "Squad X fighting over this crossroads" rather than a battle on a grander scale like "Attack on Caen." Not everyone's cup of tea, but may appeal more to re-enactors and for those who want to get all moody and serious about the game, whilst still keeping within the theme of Airsoft, all be it just a bit more removed.
Each and everybodies games are excellent for their purpose, I think that the mindset of the player dictates which games appeal to them more, rather than it being a reflection on the quality of the games. I have great fun at any WW2 games, the small part in Road to Caen that I participated in was no execption!... seeing Josh jump out of a bush shooting an MP40 from the hip was extremely funny!
I was all ready for jacking in airsoft earlier this year for one reason or another, however the fun I had at Road to Caen, the immersion I had at Operation Lightning and the sheer determination I had at Die Glocke (all within about 2 months of eachother) swung it all around. 
The difficulty comes from trying to merge more than one of the types. Serious re-enactor types may not be able to get immersed in a game where theres a bunch of chaps in a different faction in the same fox hole.. and on the other hand those who enjoy ww2 games for the sheer having a great time 'taking on a bunch of Germans' with their mates may think "well why should I get X kit so i can play at this game"
As for Private reenactment battles and where they have gone to?... I feel quite enamoured by the fact that the PRB types are suggesting that their numbers have come across to airsoft, especially after the very distinct "differences" that were thought of once upon a time! 
Nice post Matt. Although I have to say, I've been 'moody or serious' at a PBI game. In fact, when we were partisans I think the term 'dicking around' more accurately reflects our actions! 
To try and avoid cluttering this excellent thread up with the mess of another kit debate, I've opened a thread on this subject here:
It's less of a kit requirements thing and more of a 'stop buying so much stuff' plea!!
Of course, its easy to make the mistake that 'reenactment' is all about 'correct' kit. It isn't. A cursory examination of any big reenactment show will exhibit a huge range of kit 'authenticity' - much as airsoft does.
People do 'old' reenactment private battles for the same variety of reasons as 'new' reenactment private battles.
And note there is a big difference between reenactment shows and reenactment private battles.
So, the punters:
Some like dressing up, some like guns, some like living history, some like camaraderie, some like authentic kit, some like pushing themselves mentally and physically - and so on.
None of this is mutually exclusive of course - you can pick and choose the category you fall into! But what you like does reflect the sort of games you will enjoy and those you won't.
As an example, if you like swanning around in authentic kit and having photos taken then CiA events aren't for you. On the other hand if you are of a mind set where you haven't fired a shot for two hours and yet your heart is pounding with adrenaline then CiA events might be right up your street. I wouldn't be so rude as to categorise other organiser's events but there IS something for everyone. If only they would book up and play!
Couldn't have put it better myself Webby.
Pretty much *exactly* how i see things.
I think PBI have lead the way in a lot of the elements of 'realism' in WWII skirmish battling (blood soaked first field dressings instead of strips of cloth, tight 300 round ammo limits, 'dying in place' and acting an injury rather than saying hit and walking off etc) which isn't to everyone's taste but to me is more immersive.
Theres a place for every type of gameplay and it would be dull if all battles used the same ruleset... however as Dave and Steve have alluded to... the best written game with the greatest rules is no good unless folk book on t play.
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
I think the points being missed a little....A kit lending/borrowing thread will only work up to a certain point,take the Kasserine pass game to have 15/20 Germans in at least 50% DKA uniform..at least 15/17 Germans have got to buy some form of DkA uniform.Then you've got the Monte Cassino game.. have the Germans who want to play got to go out and buy a FJ Mediterranean rig out.Most of the players in our group have only just got there greys peadots and smocks sorted.Then on top of that work for some of them is'ent looking good.
PS..I've been and got a full DAK uniform for the Kasserine pass game also a FJ uniform for Monte Cassino..But not all can or will, just buy for one game,my point being making good of what we have.
There always needs to be games to push the boundaries a little to open up new areas and bring in fresh ideas. Thats not to say I don't want to see lots of NWE games in the future as I'd like to get as much use out of my kit as the next man. There are still tons of scenarios that can be used and I'm sure that the coming year will provide plenty to keep everyone happy. Its just that the more unusual ones have been announced earlier to allow those who want to get the kit time to prepare.
Both Boryszyn and Kasserine should, as Steiner said, allow for a wider variety of new game scenarios in the future as they open up new theatres and have very relaxed kit lists ensures they are as accessable as possible. As interest in those theatres picks up them the likely hood of additional games increases as will the amount of spare kit people have available to lend to those who do not have their own.
I don't think Wladek has announced units for Cassino yet but I don't believe he is limiting to FJ only so you may have jumped the gun a little.
Further to my somewhat terse post regarding the Westwald event - I willl contribute to this thread - For years the WWII scene had a bloody good private battle circuit. It was proper and it was for men. People took a minimum of kit and hired or brought along an FAC weapon and went into t he field to spend 2-3 days in as near to it as was possible.
As time went on people started to bring camping cookers, airbeds, central heating, native bearers and 9v microwaves to heat up their pot noodles....... IN short it went soft.
Now people won't go to a gig unless it's sanitised and lovely and they can retire to the Travelodge of an evening to get a good nights sleep for the forthcoming days battle.
A large element is also that everyone wants it doing for them - Some poor sap puts in time love and effort to put a gig together then all the fat idle armchair experts leap in on the net and diss it until the rest of them belive the crap..... It's always beent he same though - Gonks who can't wipe their own butts without a map and mirror and some instructions will always offer their sage opinion and derail a possibly worthwhile weekend.
What the WWII airsoft section of the community has done is to steal the laurels of the old guard - In a short time this crew has moved naturally into a higher standard, increased knowledge, more dedication and better attention to detail thus progressing what started out as a simple film sim weekend into full blown re-enactment with LIving History also grwoing as a result. WWII airsoft fills a void that at the moment is small but will continue to grow - Section V armourers will not grow in number - they can't hope to equip everyone at a large game/event/weekend. RIFs are easily obtainable as a re-enactor and an airsofter - they are cheap to run, easier on the environment and less likely to cause hearing damage or cripple a person if misused. SO whilst it is said that they are toys and make the weekend namby pamby - you just watch the trickle become a flood.
What is needed to be overcome is the sabotage and the jealousy that will stem from those whith positions to protect. What is needed is for those who already put on successful events to be vigilant and not to acquiesce to the Luddites who are surely out there. When a person sees a profit he will try to take your target audeince. CiA, PBI and AFRA are not for profit. In fact in my experience it casts the organisers more often than not.
Much more fun and certainly more realism is to be had using airsoft. Yes we lose the noise and the smell of gunfire. But we gain non lethal realism and we are able to be self sufficient. I will continue to watch with interest, take part and ATTEMPT to organise events uisng airsoft weapons but with old style re-enactment values - and the arseholes who want to bring airbeds and BBQs can stay the f--- away.
Remember this - when there are no more blank firing battles - where will they go?
LOOK! I ham now four meggle man!
A001
Would sleeping in a fox hole with an airbed be a permissible compromise PD?
Heh, CiA are pushing more to the hard-core side (as far as namby-pamby-ness allows) so we will be meeting in the middle soon Paul!
