Ive been airsofting for a good many years, but im looking at join the WW2 scene. Now ive always liked the German guns, so ill more than likely do a german loadout, but my problem is this. When is an accurate impression considered going too far? I mean this specifically in relation to the nazi badges and stuff, as i dont want anyone to get the idea i condone the actions of the nazis or any other facist movement, but i would like to do a relatively accurate loadout. I noticed that most german world war two gear had the eagle emblem on it, but im just worried about the swastika, what do most players think is ok and what do they think isnt acceptable?
Thanks for your help
Cia and PBi rule is to play COMBAT units of the German armed forces
and to play them as accurately as you like.
you could...
Play in flectarn (modern german) jacket and trousers with an ak47 and still be very welcome at a cia game.
at the other end of the spectrum you could turnh up as a waffen ss sergeant with bravery awards and jackboots and be as equally welcome.
If you're being historical then the most liberal german soldier of wwii wore at least two swastikas (one on his jacket and one on his head/hat)
No one minds how far you take it if its fighting related stuff.
So SS runes are ok, combat badges with swastikas on them are ok, jackets with eagles on are ok.
What is not ok is concentration camp guards , nazi party officials (SD, gestapo, hitler etc)
The majority of German soldiers were just men doing a job and had no idea what was going on politically in Germany while they were stationed in the arse end of norway for three years etc.
While individual units committed excesses this happened in all armies, even the institutional mass murder and death camps happened in soviet russia.
The key is rule no 1 of CiA 'dont be a cock' use common sense , look at some old event pics, go for the look that makes you happy but avoid political 'nazi' looks liek red armbands, black police uniforms, leather trenchcoats etc...
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
Id like to a historically accurate impression, so thats partly why im interested, but im also a complete history boff, and would like to do an impression of historical accuracy.
My original idea was to try and do a Waffen SS impression (ie a fighting SS soldier), but i thought that some people might take that offensively- i know many people dont like people wearing normal army unit badges and such.
So basically, the gear that would be worn into combat- ie what youd see a german wearing in band of brothers or such, but not things from the political side?
Just to also clarify- i take it that there s no further stigma against officer impressions than average soldier impressions, i have a mate whos very keen on building an impression of german captain
I cant see a problem in being a captain. I for one have Sgt stripes on my Uniform. Ranks dont count though as in, he can start throwing orders about to people in the field, and expect them to follow them.
Sorry, that was a bit confusing, he just wants to wear an officers uniform, as opposed to a grunts, he be bleedin' hopeless at commanding people and more than likely wouldnt attempt to
Common sense really. As Gadge has said already a KZ, SD, or Gestapo uniform certainly won't go down well, but there are also certain Waffen-SS "combat" units that would be frowned upon. Kaminski Brigade, Dirlewanger, Handschar being three off the top of my head.
With regards to Officers uniforms, CiA try (on the German side) to keep Officers visors and crushers as the reserve of organisers when in the field, purely as it makes it easier for players to ID those who know whats going on (or, in my case pretending to know whats going on! 
)
Now, when it comes to evening social do's, Officers kit looks superb, but I would give one piece of advice, and that's to try and look at a rank that would be applicable to the age of the person wearing the uniform. Obergruppenfuhrer uniform would look pretty silly on a 25 year old!
When we were a Kingdom it was run by a King
When we were an Empire it was run by an Empress
Now we're a country we're run by a..........
As Kermit said for PBI games with regards to officers - as part of the 'film sim' experience we also like it to be obvious visual who is in charge of a team or group.
Players dressed as officers not only confuses this but look a bit silly if we had a squad of four captains being led by a sgt...
Save officers kit for the pre game social outfit - many players put together (an often quite over the top) outfit purely for messing about drinking the night before a game (however the social outfit should not be 'antisocial' and still adhere to the 'no political' ethos).
Edit: the blindingly obvious just occurred to me. As a good guide to what is the norm/acceptable have a look at the sample kit guides on this forum, they should be on drop down menus at the top of the page. Pretty sure there are two SS ones and few other axis units.
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
Its a bit trickier with waffen ss though Fred.
He'd have a different cut of uniform, different highly visible collar insignia, different belt and most likely a different headdress - although (as with UK officers) Waffen SS officers could wear other ranks kit in the field it sort of defeats the object of wanting to dress as an officer if you're going to do that..
If he's starting out its probably a much better idea (and much cheaper) to go for enlisted man.
There's a distinct shortage of private soliders in WWII airsoft - *everyone* seems to be a sgt or cpl at least 
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
So basically, the gear that would be worn into combat- ie what youd see a german wearing in band of brothers or such, but not things from the political side?
Actually this is a good point i think we never really clarified in our guides.
Even some awards we'd feel a bit iffy about, so for example... infantry assault badge is ok on a tunic but party membership badge or HJ sports badge etc are not.
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
We haven't mentioned in guides because it has never come up as an issue. Everyone has had good common sense so far!
WW2 airsoft is about the portrayal of the soldier who was fighting for his country - keep the politics out of it and you can't go wrong. If you are not sure then take a look at the hundreds of photos taken at events over the past two years (on this and other forums and web sites) and all will become clear...
We haven't mentioned in guides because it has never come up as an issue. Everyone has had good common sense so far!
WW2 airsoft is about the portrayal of the soldier who was fighting for his country - keep the politics out of it and you can't go wrong. If you are not sure then take a look at the hundreds of photos taken at events over the past two years (on this and other forums and web sites) and all will become clear...
Hmmm much my thought too ...
or as Heide put it so well recently ...follow the CiA golden rule of not being a cock
.........if you don't understand what he meant by that ....er...probs best look elsewhere .
Anyhow how big is your mate I have a Heer Badge German officers Tunic and Trousers for sale if he's about my size .
infantry assault badge is ok on a tunic but party membership badge or HJ sports badge etc are not.
I'm going to disagree with you on the HJ badge thing (not that I want to wear one). Two of my uncles were in the HJ. It was obligatory for boys to attend HJ meetings and most of them enjoyed the sports aspect of it despite the politics. They equate it to the boy scouts.
At the end of the day it's about what YOU feel comfortable portraying.
infantry assault badge is ok on a tunic but party membership badge or HJ sports badge etc are not.
I'm going to disagree with you on the HJ badge thing (not that I want to wear one). Two of my uncles were in the HJ. It was obligatory for boys to attend HJ meetings and most of them enjoyed the sports aspect of it despite the politics. They equate it to the boy scouts.
At the end of the day it's about what YOU feel comfortable portraying.
partly right...........it's also what the organisers of the game / owners ofthe site you are playing at consider acceptable as well ...as we're the one's who will take the flak when it all hits the tabloids . No room for debate of this one.
infantry assault badge is ok on a tunic but party membership badge or HJ sports badge etc are not.
I'm going to disagree with you on the HJ badge thing (not that I want to wear one). Two of my uncles were in the HJ. It was obligatory for boys to attend HJ meetings and most of them enjoyed the sports aspect of it despite the politics. They equate it to the boy scouts.
At the end of the day it's about what YOU feel comfortable portraying.
partly right...........it's also what the organisers of the game / owners ofthe site you are playing at consider acceptable as well ...as we're the one's who will take the flak when it all hits the tabloids . No room for debate of this one.
And thats the truth, that documentary Weekend Nazis has reared its head again. Some one from spain posted it on arnies. Hadn't seen it in ages and I had forgotten how baised it was. I did feel sorry for the copper bloke, I'm surprised I haven't been hauled in and spanked with a copy of Politically correct weekly.
Both fair points, however the reason that axis players are OK with wearing swastikas is because it was the symbol of the State that those soldiers found themselves born in, not because of any ideology. If my history is correct, Allgemeine SS personnel (I won't call them soldiers) all had the option to transfer to combat units, but preferred machine-gunning people women and kids instead of people who could shoot back, so that's clearly not an impression that anyone would want to play. As for party membership, my grandfather, who was an ardent anti-nazi, joined the party in 1939 because his commission in the Kriegsmarine required him to be a member (and he needed the work). So swastikas, HJ and party membership were all things that were foisted upon the German people.
I'm playing devil's advocate here, as I'm not interested in wearing HJ or party badges, but from an ideological POV, if we're not squeamish about wearing swastikas, then we shouldn't be squeamish about some other sybols of the regime.
As for the media, the fact that we want to play Axis at all condemns us to an uneducated and censorious media scrutiny, but we all knew that when we started the hobby.
brave words beds, bravo. isnt it funny....... fighting against the forces of nazi fascism , to have the right of freedom to wear their symbols. think about it.
Both fair points, however the reason that axis players are OK with wearing swastikas is because it was the symbol of the State that those soldiers found themselves born in, not because of any ideology. If my history is correct, Allgemeine SS personnel (I won't call them soldiers) all had the option to transfer to combat units, but preferred machine-gunning people women and kids instead of people who could shoot back, so that's clearly not an impression that anyone would want to play. As for party membership, my grandfather, who was an ardent anti-nazi, joined the party in 1939 because his commission in the Kriegsmarine required him to be a member (and he needed the work). So swastikas, HJ and party membership were all things that were foisted upon the German people.
I'm playing devil's advocate here, as I'm not interested in wearing HJ or party badges, but from an ideological POV, if we're not squeamish about wearing swastikas, then we shouldn't be squeamish about some other sybols of the regime.
As for the media, the fact that we want to play Axis at all condemns us to an uneducated and censorious media scrutiny, but we all knew that when we started the hobby.
Don't think we need any devils advocates .
For my money.... virtually all the SS ....Waffen or not..... were a bunch of Nazi cunts.
1 SS - Malmedy massacre , Stavelot massacre of civilians , northern Italian massacre of civilians
2nd SS Oradour sur Glane , go there see the church where 200 women were set alight , I have, it made me physically sick .
3rd SS - Eikes brigade ...originally recruited from camp guards. ...
...& the list goes on and on , that's just of the top of my head . I know there are members here who feel certain units are exempt , mostly they are wrong. I'm sick of apologists , explaining how the Russians were just as bad, or it was blutrausche, or how some American's massacred some ofthe 17th SS in 1945 , or how the Dachau trials were unfair , or how history is written by the victors, ...after 30 years of study I've heard it all . Although there is merit is some of the preceeding, put bluntly there were cunts, nazi cunts, who supported a regime which murdered 6m Jews alone , shocked the world with inhumanty , and to a greater or lesser degree were let off with it at the end of the War. Nothing since even Phol Pot or Serbia or Saddam has even come close.
So , if you want to portray Waffen SS , then fine , I won't object ..if anyone wants to wear Nazi party regalia at one of our events, then frankly ...set up your own events .
Second and last time, there's no room for debate on this .
Don't think we need any devil's advocates
The success of CiA games, apart from good planning and execution by the organisers, is also due to the research and effort that every player puts into compiling their impression. Without them there are no games. The start of this thread was the sensible newcomer question "What's OK and what isn't?". We all have our own personal ideas on what's OK to portray, and I've never heard criticism about anyone's choices. Maybe there are some symbols/impressions that are simply too contentious to be included in any game, regardless of historical accuracy. I'm not going to argue because it's not anything I want to do or wear anyway. This is a forum with a high caliber of membership. You can set the rules for games but you shouldn't set the rules for debate - that's too much like another airsoft website I can think of.
fighting against the forces of nazi fascism , to have the right of freedom to wear their symbols. think about it.
It's an irony that would confuse our grandparents, that's for sure. From the other side, lots of younger Germans find it ridiculous that democratic Germany still prohibits the displaying of swastikas (even if used as an anti-fascist political statement) and publishing or owning Mein Kampf. Their argument is that the banning of symbols and books was a hallmark of the Nazi party.
To be fair Martin, the thread was about what is acceptable to wear at events and not a general debate about the hypocrisy of people's mindsets.
Although Guy's outburst is full of holes and subsequent posts (no matter how elegant) have merit is really is a debate for elsewhere as the answer to the original question is in danger of being lost!
Common sense has always prevailed - anything overtly political is not acceptable, depiction of a working soldier within the bounds of the scenario is fine. And I can say with a degree of certainty that this is so for any organised game in the UK.
As a simplistic indication of this - Heer uniforms carry an eagle over the right pocket. Close examination reveals the eagle is carrying a swastika. Blacking out the symbol (as they have to do in Germany) would be an absurdity - we would all know it was there even if it couldn't be seen and in any case it was part and parcel of the uniform of a regular German soldier.
By contrast, someone turning up at an event in a black SS police uniform with red part armband, was seen goose-stepping and giving party salutes would not only be ejected by the organisers before he even got out of the safezone and would find that not only was he persona non grata and shunned from the community but worse - his forum access would be terminated!
Heh, I'm pretty sure that anyone reading this thread is in no doubt over what is acceptable or not and so with this post I am closing the thread.
If anyone is brave enough to start a discussion elsewhere on the hypocrisy of airsofters/politics then please do (in Off Topic) and I would be happy to join in.