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Nurglitch
(@nurglitch)
Reputable Member

Kitwhore files: S&S Lee Enfield No. 4, AGM Sten Mk. II, Tanaka Kar 98k, WE Luger P08
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Topic starter Posted : 25/05/2013 1:55 pm
Poacher
(@poacher)
Noble Member

Two things I would suggest, Blanco and sort out the chin strap?

aka Stigroadie

AFRA
better by design

"Truth is a shining goddess, always veiled, always distant, never wholly approachable, but worthy of all the devotion of which the human spirit is capable. "

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Posted : 25/05/2013 2:26 pm
Nurglitch
(@nurglitch)
Reputable Member

Two things I would suggest, Blanco and sort out the chin strap?

I'm not yet decided on blanco. From what I read a lot of Poles didn't bother with it. I have some more research to do.

Chinstrap - yeah, I will have to fiddle a bit with it.

Kitwhore files: S&S Lee Enfield No. 4, AGM Sten Mk. II, Tanaka Kar 98k, WE Luger P08
Wishlist: AGM Stg44, possible LE No. 4 gas project

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Topic starter Posted : 25/05/2013 2:40 pm
(@wladek)
Famed Member

Two things I would suggest, Blanco and sort out the chin strap?

I'm not yet decided on blanco. From what I read a lot of Poles didn't bother with it. I have some more research to do.

Oh how I have hunted for some definitive answer to that. Best I have been able to do is jusge by 'shade' on period pics, which is tricky. I get mixed results, especially for the Parachutists.

edit: pics have have suggested a greater likelihood of Blanco on the parachutists than, say, the Dragoons in France.

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Posted : 25/05/2013 2:47 pm
Nurglitch
(@nurglitch)
Reputable Member

I get mixed results, especially for the Parachutists.

Which is probably exactly right. From what I heard and read green blanco was an individual choice in Polish units. Some soldiers used it, some didn't. Only the white blanco (or toothpaste) was used by pretty much everyone for the "formal" kit.

Kitwhore files: S&S Lee Enfield No. 4, AGM Sten Mk. II, Tanaka Kar 98k, WE Luger P08
Wishlist: AGM Stg44, possible LE No. 4 gas project

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Topic starter Posted : 25/05/2013 2:55 pm
Poacher
(@poacher)
Noble Member

You will find the superior camouflage effect of blanco to be well worth the investment if you play much Airsoft.
It was the same for soldiers in combat. Not so marked a contrast against a Denison, the contrast against BD was noted by many and units who were not obliged to blanco soon did.
Canadian and Polish units took up the practice in time. Not exclusively but noticeably.

aka Stigroadie

AFRA
better by design

"Truth is a shining goddess, always veiled, always distant, never wholly approachable, but worthy of all the devotion of which the human spirit is capable. "

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Posted : 25/05/2013 11:00 pm
Ramsay00105
(@ramsay00105)
Honorable Member

Try soaking the hessian cam scrim on the helmet in water to soften it a bit as it looks too stiff and angular at the moment. It will blend better into the background then.

15 Plt. C Coy 2 Batt. S STAFFORDS 1st Airlanding Brigade 1st Airborne Division
The Hallamshire Battalion Y&L Regiment 146 Infantry Brigade 49 Inf Division


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Posted : 28/05/2013 4:58 pm
Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

Two things I would suggest, Blanco and sort out the chin strap?

I'm not yet decided on blanco. From what I read a lot of Poles didn't bother with it. I have some more research to do.

Chinstrap - yeah, I will have to fiddle a bit with it.

Either way it would be a case of do it or dont.

Might just be the light but looks like one of your straps on your shoulder has been blancoed previously (it looks pea green against the sand)

Mixed blancoed and unblancoed webbing looks worse than unblancoed and just wouldnt have been allowed. The whole unit would have done blancoing or not...

But otherwise, yup. Nice kit.

I'd agree about sorting the fit of the chin strap and i wouldnt worry about the denison being a bit dark and 'busy', it only tends to be an issue if you're a part of a group/unit. It's why PBI used to prefer rangercamp/K&C/military tours smocks as the colours and cut were very close on all three. could be worse could be a replicators one and that would be mustard coloured all over after a few washes.




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Posted : 30/05/2013 9:26 pm
Nurglitch
(@nurglitch)
Reputable Member

Either way it would be a case of do it or dont.
Might just be the light but looks like one of your straps on your shoulder has been blancoed previously (it looks pea green against the sand)

No, it's the small pack strap. The small pack is war or just-after issue and has been blancoed in the past. Webbing is repro and hasn't been.

Mixed blancoed and unblancoed webbing looks worse than unblancoed and just wouldnt have been allowed. The whole unit would have done blancoing or not...

Again from what I have heard and read there was a huge mismatch in the Polish units. Blancoing or not (and if so - what colours) would be left to the soldiers. I'll decide this way or other some time in the future. I'm not really buying into "camo is king" so I'm not in hellfire rush. I need to do some more research.

I'd agree about sorting the fit of the chin strap and i wouldnt worry about the denison being a bit dark and 'busy', it only tends to be an issue if you're a part of a group/unit. It's why PBI used to prefer rangercamp/K&C/military tours smocks

Btw, do you know any good source of camo windproofs? WPG is in a huff over low amount of orders and won't be doing them again. Is there any other decent manufacturer on the market?

Kitwhore files: S&S Lee Enfield No. 4, AGM Sten Mk. II, Tanaka Kar 98k, WE Luger P08
Wishlist: AGM Stg44, possible LE No. 4 gas project

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Topic starter Posted : 30/05/2013 10:08 pm
Nurglitch
(@nurglitch)
Reputable Member

This one will work for me. Thanks :)

Kitwhore files: S&S Lee Enfield No. 4, AGM Sten Mk. II, Tanaka Kar 98k, WE Luger P08
Wishlist: AGM Stg44, possible LE No. 4 gas project

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Topic starter Posted : 30/05/2013 10:44 pm
Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

The silvermans ones are ok. The decent repro used to be the panzerfaust ones but you've not been able to get those except second hand for a while.

I've always found the silvermans ones too, well silver, in the shade that should be a pinky tan.

I'm not buying this 'poles had rag order kit' argument :)

I get the idea that , like canadians, blanco would be a thing done, or not done, by a unit but they would still have parades and still have RSMs and still be expected to have a smart turn out... mixed blanco and non blanco webbing just looks dire.

Even if it is the case unless you have the time to explain it to every one you meet you're going to look to 90 per cent of people like you dont know what you're doing so it's probably safer just to blanco it :)

I mean you may not care, and if you dont power to you, but its a bit like carrying 'exceptional' kit that you know was carried by some individual or unit but no one else knows about. while you know the impression is spot on everyone else thinks 'farb' or worse you give a false impression and others copy you without knowing what you're doing and other re-enactors/airsofters use your pics for reference.

Personally thats why I always think its better to portray the norm.

I'm sure its not the case with you but *nearly* every other list of reasons for not blancoing kit along the lines of 'this unit did x' or 'canadians didnt always do it' actually translates as 'im worried about fecking up my kit and i really cant be doing with the mess and hassle'. :)




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Posted : 01/06/2013 8:52 am
Nurglitch
(@nurglitch)
Reputable Member

I'm not buying this 'poles had rag order kit' argument :)

I'm not selling it :) I saw the pics of 1st Armoured webbing straps in RAF colours or completely unblancoed. I'm not going to argue with the facts.

Even if it is the case unless you have the time to explain it to every one you meet you're going to look to 90 per cent of people like you dont know what you're doing

I honestly couldn't care less. I'm doing it for myself and as long as I know what's what I don't really care what others think about my gear. If someone asks I will explain. But I'm not ever going to be doing any public events so that's unlikely.

I mean you may not care, and if you dont power to you, but its a bit like carrying 'exceptional' kit that you know was carried by some individual or unit but no one else knows about. while you know the impression is spot on everyone else thinks 'farb' or worse you give a false impression and others copy you without knowing what you're doing and other re-enactors/airsofters use your pics for reference.

Personally thats why I always think its better to portray the norm.

I understand that argument and normaly subscribe to it too but apparently the norm was the lack of norm :) You can't do the average impression if there was no average. As I've said - I have more research to do before I decide either way.

Kitwhore files: S&S Lee Enfield No. 4, AGM Sten Mk. II, Tanaka Kar 98k, WE Luger P08
Wishlist: AGM Stg44, possible LE No. 4 gas project

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Topic starter Posted : 01/06/2013 4:45 pm
Poacher
(@poacher)
Noble Member

Again from what I have heard and read there was a huge mismatch in the Polish units. Blancoing or not (and if so - what colours) would be left to the soldiers. I'll decide this way or other some time in the future. I'm not really buying into "camo is king" so I'm not in hellfire rush. I need to do some more research.

Where did you hear and read that? The quality of the source might be another guide? If you heard it from a re-enactor at a railway event who had a plastic Thompson, hi-tec Magnum boots and a Majors rank I'd not be as sure of my source.
You don't need 'colours' of Blanco, just one. Kg3.
You might buy into the Camo is king once you do some events without blanco? When you without the blanco are attracting all the fire and walking back to regen all the time because you stick out like a sore thumb and you mates with blanco are getting the job done, that might be the time to think about it.

aka Stigroadie

AFRA
better by design

"Truth is a shining goddess, always veiled, always distant, never wholly approachable, but worthy of all the devotion of which the human spirit is capable. "

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Posted : 04/06/2013 5:39 am
Nurglitch
(@nurglitch)
Reputable Member

Where did you hear and read that? The quality of the source might be another guide?

Multiple sources, including a re-enactment group that's in touch with Polish veterans. The photos also show Poles having a fairly random distribution of blancoed and non-blancoed gear. If you can live with google translate this is an interesting thread:
http://odkrywca.pl/kilka-uwag-o-oporzad ... 14812.html

If you heard it from a re-enactor at a railway event who had a plastic Thompson, hi-tec Magnum boots and a Majors rank I'd not be as sure of my source.

Sorry.... what?

You might buy into the Camo is king once you do some events without blanco?

I know where I can get it, I know how to use it, I know what it is, I know how British forces used it. I'm still doing my research on Polish ones. I'm not a Brit, I'm a Pole, my chosen formations are Polish ones, not British ones. And I repeat, I honestly cannot care less what people at public events which I will never ever attend think about that.

Kitwhore files: S&S Lee Enfield No. 4, AGM Sten Mk. II, Tanaka Kar 98k, WE Luger P08
Wishlist: AGM Stg44, possible LE No. 4 gas project

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Topic starter Posted : 04/06/2013 9:25 am
(@wladek)
Famed Member

Again from what I have heard and read there was a huge mismatch in the Polish units. Blancoing or not (and if so - what colours) would be left to the soldiers. I'll decide this way or other some time in the future. I'm not really buying into "camo is king" so I'm not in hellfire rush. I need to do some more research.

Where did you hear and read that? The quality of the source might be another guide? If you heard it from a re-enactor at a railway event who had a plastic Thompson, hi-tec Magnum boots and a Majors rank I'd not be as sure of my source.
You don't need 'colours' of Blanco, just one. Kg3.
You might buy into the Camo is king once you do some events without blanco? When you without the blanco are attracting all the fire and walking back to regen all the time because you stick out like a sore thumb and you mates with blanco are getting the job done, that might be the time to think about it.

No the sources for this are generally good, it coincides with what I have come across. Photos, memoirs, histories, museum pieces - re-enactors are not sources - whether they are in a plastic helmet, or the most pukka of kit - seriously ask Rich what my reply is when he tells me what some re-enactment group says about anything.

If you read through histories of WWII, general histories, in the English language, then in the one paragraph it denotes to pre-1940 they still frequently retell accounts of Cavalry charging at tanks. Some have also mentioned that there was a debate amongst historians if this happened, using similar general histories as their sources in the 'yes they did' camp.
But there is no debate, just a consensus. Every historian researching and writing about the the '39 campaign has reached the same conclusion from the evidence. It is only those who have not researched it, who form the counter view, mainly just from 'common knowledge/sense'. I expect this to change now so surely they would at least look at the wikipedia article before sending to print.

Similarly those who are researching the Polish forces have reached the same conclusion, it does not look like Blanco was universally adopted or used uniformly. Nurglitch will (I assume) speak/read Polish, so have access to more first hand info then I do. As the histories have not dwelt on Blanco that much most of what I have had to go on is pictorial.
It is not a matter of principle or pride that Poles didn't 'do' blanco, the evidence just suggests that they didn't universally do so.

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Posted : 04/06/2013 9:32 am
Nurglitch
(@nurglitch)
Reputable Member

One of the reasons may be simply under supply. The sources mention whitening parade kit with toothpaste instead of white blanco - probably simply because white blanco was not available. I read a story about Polish Commandos rolling their webbing in the grass to make them green. Again the reason may be just lack of the proper blanco.

Kitwhore files: S&S Lee Enfield No. 4, AGM Sten Mk. II, Tanaka Kar 98k, WE Luger P08
Wishlist: AGM Stg44, possible LE No. 4 gas project

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Topic starter Posted : 04/06/2013 9:46 am
Poacher
(@poacher)
Noble Member

I totally agree with most of the points.
Re-enactors are not a source, spot on, that's what I was hinting at with the Major and his toy gun.
Polish units did not always blanco, absolutely, my point is if you are going to skirmish the green webbing offers an advantage over raw webbing. It's not nearly as conspicuous especially over BD.
That the Poles had supply issues, damn right. There are several posts on here where I note that 'the Poles are different' when it comes to kit issue. They don't seem to have been near the top of anyone's list.

aka Stigroadie

AFRA
better by design

"Truth is a shining goddess, always veiled, always distant, never wholly approachable, but worthy of all the devotion of which the human spirit is capable. "

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Posted : 04/06/2013 4:59 pm
Chomley-Warner
(@admin-infinity)
Illustrious Member Admin

I'm curious... The Poles were issued with our webbing and our uniforms here in the UK and were trainingfor a good time. They are soldiers and the army (all armies) like their men to look smart. Random webbing from stores looks terrible. Blanco wasn't issued (much), it was bought from the Naafi, along with your toothpaste (and the white Blanco and other brands could be bought from any hardware shop or sporting goods supplier). Quite apart from camouflage arguments when fighting, when here, seen on parades, visited by bigwigs (not least Polish bigwigs) why wouldn't the Poles use freely available (and not expensive) Blanco? The situation isn't any different to the British soldier. Once posted and at the sticky end of course things are different, for both nationalities - under duress and at the end of a long supply chain Blanco would be the last thing on their minds. (And, as an aside, why is it totted that Canadians didn't use Blanco when they had two webbing renovator manufacturers of their own?!)

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Posted : 04/06/2013 6:26 pm
(@wladek)
Famed Member

I'm curious... The Poles were issued with our webbing and our uniforms here in the UK and were trainingfor a good time. They are soldiers and the army (all armies) like their men to look smart. Random webbing from stores looks terrible. Blanco wasn't issued (much), it was bought from the Naafi, along with your toothpaste (and the white Blanco and other brands could be bought from any hardware shop or sporting goods supplier). Quite apart from camouflage arguments when fighting, when here, seen on parades, visited by bigwigs (not least Polish bigwigs) why wouldn't the Poles use freely available (and not expensive) Blanco? The situation isn't any different to the British soldier. Once posted and at the sticky end of course things are different, for both nationalities - under duress and at the end of a long supply chain Blanco would be the last thing on their minds. (And, as an aside, why is it totted that Canadians didn't use Blanco when they had two webbing renovator manufacturers of their own?!)

I don't know, is the long and short. It would make more sense to me if the didn't use it at all - they would be uniform, smart, and if they don't care for it they don;t care for it. But pictures - even ones with bigwigs - infer a different tale. Memoirs tend to focus on other tales than blanco, understandably if annoyingly. Someone authoritative should speak to some vets and ask them why, but again historians tend to focus on other tales.

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Posted : 04/06/2013 7:13 pm
Nurglitch
(@nurglitch)
Reputable Member

The parade kit would be whitened, either by blanco or toothpaste. The soldiers would swap uniform parts to try and match the colour. The mismatched gear and the blanco/no blanco/different colours thing is about the battle gear, not parade gear.

Kitwhore files: S&S Lee Enfield No. 4, AGM Sten Mk. II, Tanaka Kar 98k, WE Luger P08
Wishlist: AGM Stg44, possible LE No. 4 gas project

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Topic starter Posted : 04/06/2013 7:34 pm
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