Hi Kermit
Again sorry to veer off topic (might be worthwhile splitting the topic as it seems of merit)
If CiA were to set a scale of issue as it were - and offer places to people based on weapon allocation -
e.g
"Announcing Operation Scharfewinkel"
We have 40- places for players on a first come basis as follows
Allied
15 rifle
2MG
3 autos
Axis
15 rifle
2MG
3 Auto
You may of course get everyone plumping for the tommy guns first everytime but also you have control over that and as long as you are fair then you can rotate people....... I completely agree with you Kermit - I've been involved in shooting sports for over 35 years and I have ALWAYS seen the money men with their custom guns, shooting aids, special loads - you name it - come and go. it often spoils a sport and usually proves nothing other than a bloke with a fat chequebook can push himself a couple or three places up the ratings. My biggest pleasure in life was always seeing the raggedy arsed nipper with a borrowed £20 bangstick knock the spots off allcomers and then go back to the bar without so much as a smirk......
It would be great to see a squad all armed with Stg44s and I'm sure we will at some point this year. it would be equally great to see the opfor armed with their issue weapons (Garand, Thompson, BAR, .30) and give them a run for their money...... Like I say - 3 arty barrages for the Allies against 1 for the Axis should even up the odds somewhat. and if you are down on firepower - make up for it in teamwork, tactics and heart......
PS
Nice pic........ card being sent!
LOOK! I ham now four meggle man!
A001
then you are being elitist, like i said, tommy guns are plentyfull because they are cheap. limit the amount of people who can use them in a game and you are being selective.if it ever gets to the point that people can only take part depending on how much you earn a year i will give this up out of principle.
Split off as requested .
My POV, nice idea, bit early yet , trying to get everyone in same unit or branch uniform would be a starting point .....ie all SS or all Heer or all Commando . sadly as everyone has to buy their own rather thna have it issued it takes time ..but we're getting there .
I agree with Skaley not everyone can afford a £400 K98 or Enfield and the US Garand conversions are semi/rull auto annyway so for a CIA game it would not work, not to mention the fact it would exclude alot of new and existing members wich is just not a good idea, I already think their is a fair mix of guns at games, alot of the germans have K98's and alot of PBI have enfields, and there are a few on the US team with Garand conversions.
But as a separate mil sim/reinactment/LARP thing I like the idea but not as a CIA game.
Points taken and indeed agreed with...... Would be VERY up for developing something under the guidance of CiA in which we could incorporate some WWIIMilsim type Living History with the absolute fun of reaching out and touching - It's what trad WWII re-enacting is lacking...... and soooooo many trad WWII bods are snapping up WWII AEGs...................
(edited cos I put WWI !!!!! - ooo pass me the Maxim Mutter!)
LOOK! I ham now four meggle man!
A001
Points taken and indeed agreed with...... Would be VERY up for developing something under the guidance of CiA in which we could incorporate some WWIIMilsim type Living History with the absolute fun of reaching out and touching - It's what trad WWII re-enacting is lacking...... and soooooo many trad WWII bods are snapping up WWII AEGs...................
(edited cos I put WWI !!!!! - ooo pass me the Maxim Mutter!)
LOL
You know full well we are keen to foster links in both directions ! Personally think 2009 will see a slight change in direction for CiA more towards "living the part rather than playing the game" *
This will start with Ariel , ( early war , more emphasis on correct kit and hopefully continue with the 24 hour E&E / Commando op) at the end of the summer , where we will look a limiting the amount of kit , as especially modern kit that can be used for a 24 hourer .
For my money reenactors should know how to live in period , building on that knowledge in a slower an systematic way to flavour our battles can only be a good thing . Just bear in mind reenactment is 30+ years old , WW2 airsoft not even 3 .
* TM Old 'Un
To my mind I reckon you should have a go at seeing if there is a market for the game you're suggesting PD... There are quite a few people out there with bolt actions who'd be up for it.
It's not something that CiA will want to get into doing, and PBI aren't there yet... But it is the future as it's the correct way to run WWII games. People with less money or commitment, may not like that, but that's life!
In a way the PBI idea of having "private battles" where one WWII team takes on another is the first step. It's only really the affordability and availability of decent allied bolt actions that's holding it back. We're going to the slow route to this goal. One step at a time.
As long as games with this level of focus do not detract from the mainstream of WW2 airsoft then I really don't see the problem!
Hi, I agree with all that has been said re:wanting to be more historically accurate vs practicalities and inclusion.
How about doing it on a best endeavours basis, that way those that can can, and the looks like rules can still be used.
An exapmle:
A game has two forces of 15 notionally each with one MG, two or three smg and the rest rifles, what can people do?
On each side: Four people want to play but only have an MP40 or Thompson. One is new to ww2 and has an MP5 only, a few have the correct rifle, some have M14s and a few have some other bolt action or gas rifle.
Fine then - out of a hoped total of say 13 rifles a side - 9 get fielded, a few are semi and underpowered and the remainder have MP40s etc. That is close enough to start organising the squads to use rifle tactics etc and keeps the ww2 feel better.
It is a better ask, than go and get a Lee Enfield ot Tanaka k98 at £400 a go but does encourage people, when they go to buy their first airsoft kit and they are enjoying ww2 airsoft, that I can now replace my MP5 with a cheap bolt action like JG Bar 10 and get plenty of use out of it.
As it stands at the moment, a bolt action is not the first choice for most people as they are likely to be outgunned and so they buy an aeg alternative.
I want CIA to remain as inclusive as it has been - it let me get involved! Also, no one should feel they can't play because they can't afford something. However, we need to think of ways to let the scene migrate naturally the right(??)way?
Peter Rabbit - Tank Killer
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hawk914/2159973655/
Few things
I'm frankly bored of reading about how to make it all more real , generally focused around number of rounds, or weapons used or uniforms worn . For my money all of these are gloss ...at worst just distracting bullshit...
What makes it real is for people to get in the zone in their head, and act like a fecking soldier ie , do what you are told when you are told and don't question it ...oh yeah and have some understanding of what it means to be a soldier . A large number of people come to airsoft for a variety of reasons , but most want to look like a solider and behave like an individual and do their own thing.....hence the nonsense seen at 'Mist .
As CiA we have tried through props, language, setting and encouragement to get people there, but many still persist in treating it all like a bit of a joke /open day .
Bringing 6 guns into the comabt zone ? sitting around in regen swapping kit stories ? engaging in pointless firefights because you are bored ? wandering off and doing your own thing ? ignoring people asking you to specifically do things like not blat off all your ammo ? Just a few off the top of my head .
If you are guilty of any of the above how really interested are you "in keeping it real"....just have a think and reflect .
It's in your head ...not in the kit you wear .
You could wear flecktarn and wellies but behave like the most experienced Landser and no one would notice your kit .
So how do we as CiA change this ? , we don't know , it's up to players not us , but TBH if things keep on as they are, then all that will be left will be fecking open days because we will have moved on . Inclusive we are , SISK merchants we are not .
Inclusive we are, SISK merchants we are not.
Yep, just about sums it up or me, that.
What makes it real is for people to get in the zone in their head[/u
It's in your head ...not in the kit you wear
I totaly agree playing with PBI at Husky was the most amazing experience I ever had, It was mind blowing and throughly immersive not to mention fun, being there in your mind is what counts not what kit you are carrying.
I think Dev has kind of hit the nail on the head there... What you need is the camaraderie of a group that has trained together and played together before. That's one thing that soldiers have which ties them together and makes them into a unit.
Perhaps the way ahead for that sort of immersion is more private games based on established teams taking on each other.
Certainly the best games I've played tend to be with people I have known for a while. Or at the least where the majority of the players are people I've known and trained with. The odd hanger on usually fits in just fine as long as they are willing to really join in.
Which brings me back to PD's suggestion. With that sort of exclusivity the sort of game he suggests would not be a problem.
There still has to be a training ground, a route in to the more "exclusive" games and I for one would certainly never stop playing the less exclusive games.
There's a lot of talk of eliteism and it being a bad thing. As long as there is an open route to joining in with the more "exclusive" games I don't see how it's eliteist or bad. In the end you get back what you put in... and if the more experienced player doesn't get as much back in comparison with what they put in, then they'll soon become tired of putting that extra effort in for no gain and give up.
run on a once a year ( maybe twice) spectacular extravaganza yeah its a good idea, something to work and train towards , but i just dont like the elitist element getting into what is already a niche area.whats next, games run by and only for serving/ex forces? please dont kill the fun.
whats next, games run by and only for serving/ex forces? please dont kill the fun.
Those pretty much happen already don't they? I'm pretty sure I've heard of them...
We mortals don't get invited... 
The route to entrance is just a little too steep... certainly steeper than I'd had in mind!
they dont happen in the CIA arena as far as i know.and i hope it stays that way.
CiA isn't and shouldn't be the whole of WWII airsoft you know... Just because a game like this could happen, doesn't mean that CiA will have anything at all to do with it! And in fact if someone wanted to run it, CiA wouldn't have a chance of stopping it, nor would, I suspect, want to.
Anyway... I remember now about the bloke who told me about the private "forces only" games. It was when we were at the Staffs museum at Lichfield. You were there.
He was a WWII re-enactor and also in the forces in some way. They did modern airsofting, he was the only one who also did WWII re-enacting.
It's not a question of elitism as far as CiA organised games go - as Guy said (and Yith backed up) it's a question of attitude.
What chaps have to realise that the CiA team don't organise games for the benefit of others. This might sound weird or selfish even. Think about it for a second though - we kicked off the WW2 scene because games WE wanted to play weren't catered for so we got off our arses and sorted it. The assumption was that if WE wanted to have a particular sort of game then others might too. And so it turned out.
So it should come as no surprise into the third year that we are not going to spend hundreds of hours of our time free of charge just to provide enjoyment for others. We are primarily providing enjoyment for ourselves and hope that others derive enjoyment from that. It's the only way to do it! It's different when it's a business - just let the punters get on with it as long as pay up!
Anyone who just wants to tit around dressed up is more than adequately catered for in the market. CiA are expecting a lot more than that from players in our games - as do PBI. This isn't 'new', it's always been that way. However, we are re-emphasising the point as the message has got a bit lost over time.
I agree with many of the points raised thus far, and whilst more realistic units / weaponry could add to the experience, it is the mindset and attitude of the players that makes it either a totally immersive experience, or a disappointment. For me, nothing ruins the atmosphere more than excessive talking, laughing and joking - the time for all that is before or after the event - which is why we have the pre-event social nights. Once the event starts, anybody who treats it like an open day can sod off as far as I'm concerned - (Maybe the ammo limit should be halved to prevent stupid SMG sprayers holding the trigger down for 10 seconds?)
An idea which was used at the Arnhem game (I don't recall it being used after that - I may be wrong) was the pre-appointment of NCOs, to take orders from the top and try and organise the troops to carry them out. I was nominated, but due to it being my first event and not knowing anybody, I was far too hesitant in telling people what to do. If it was made crystal clear in advance of an event that that was the way things were going to be (and that if you didn't like receiving orders not to bother coming) then I'd have no hesitation in taking on the NCO role properly (or taking orders for that matter). After all, 4 organisers cannot be everywhere at the one time.
A particular non-CiA event last year showed the good and bad side of things - at one point, Headshot and I were driven to distraction by a group of players who spent the whole time in loud conversation, including shouted thanks to players who took their hits! Eventually, we just had to move off to a different location. The good side of that event was that Chommers and HS organised our side really well, and that is why we trounced the opposition, who had no effective command structure.
You've got nothing to ein, zwei, drei, vier
ive been to games in the "fun" mindset (any game i dressed as joseph porta manly due to cost i only had one loadout ), also ive tried to get in to the "serious" mindset my last 2 games(as budget and kit has improved) . ive enjoyed the serious side a lot more.
(sadley Joseph portas topper will no longer be seen in battle, only at the pre game socials 
)
the best game ive had so far (though ive not done that many) was op huskey, it just seemed to me that players seemed to be more "in charicter", i was a bit dissapointed at mist, for the ss group , after a great start, it fell apart in the afternoon.
the upcomming pbi game op lightning seems to have a lot of people who are going to "roleplay" and be more in the right mindset.
im REALLY looking forward to the op ariel, thats the highlight of the year so far for me 
as the CIA team have said, theres now a larger veriaty of ww2 games,
i know which type i now prefer, and which i will attend ( my time for airsoft is limited, id rather do a couple of GREAT games, than a lot of so-so ones)
"Take that you rotton helping of strawberry flan!"
Joseph Porta to "strawberrys and cream", in the sven hassel book ,ogpu prison
I agree, I think a coherant command structure is a large part of the immersions, like I said playing with PBI at Husky was very immersive due to the brilliant command structure we had, even got me shouting at the italians at one point and putting on a cockney accent (they speak like that in games so meh)
Low caps I think is a must for SMG's.
TBH no one will know if the "tight" reinactsoft games will work until they are actualy tried so with Lightning, St Lo and Areal coming up hopefully you guys can get a decent idea of the way forward.
Im definately planning on getting a rifle now because of this thread, I want to make the effort as to not get excluded even if it costs me an arm and a legg.
On a side note over half of the British guys at husky had rifles, and Barrys Bren was also present.
