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Ramsay00105
(@ramsay00105)
Honorable Member

Apologies for not appearing on Sunday. Nasty cold started once I was home Saturday night and has continued through today. If it is not a cold it must have been the effects of the really thick smoke cloud we tried to attack through on Saturday. I have been a snotty mess and in no state to try to give orders.

My thanks to all in Baker on Saturday who put up with my leadership into several rounds of annihilation.
For a section that was mostly new to WWII airsoft you pulled together really well and put in some good co-ordinated attacks. Though I think some lessons about taking cover were learned. You put up well understanding that we would not chase down every German we saw and would try to achieve our given objective.
We did put out a stag while eating at CP 6 and so were better placed when the far side of the CP was bumped by 2 lost souls. I was impressed by one of our section adjusting the fire of the MG on the armoured jeep with good use of a fire control order. So thanks to all of you again and I hope to see you at events in future. In particular thanks for proving to us that Craig is not unique and that there are others out there like him. :)
The site was excellent and deserves to get used again in the future. In one day it seems I only saw a small part of it.
My frustrations if anything were not to do with my section but with the inability of some to use the maps they were given and the result that long radio messages went back and forth as people tried to locate themselves. Map reading is a basic military skill particularly if you are a commander and needs to be practiced. My section waited several times for tasking while Nigel had to sort out where someone was.
Regarding cptnights comments above. His type of behind the lines sneaking has a place. I suggest it is with the rules amendment that you have to use a noisy weapon and have only one life and no regens. Only then will you really appreciate that the sort of high risk tactic you suggest would require a very special sort of person to try it in real life.

15 Plt. C Coy 2 Batt. S STAFFORDS 1st Airlanding Brigade 1st Airborne Division
The Hallamshire Battalion Y&L Regiment 146 Infantry Brigade 49 Inf Division


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Posted : 19/11/2012 6:37 pm




(@pvtjohnny)
Reputable Member

"Regarding cptnights comments above. His type of behind the lines sneaking has a place. I suggest it is with the rules amendment that you have to use a noisy weapon and have only one life and no regens. Only then will you really appreciate that the sort of high risk tactic you suggest would require a very special sort of person to try it in real life.

I like this idea!! :good: a lone sniper with objectives, low ammo and one life would be most excellent!
There seems to be a division with peoples expectations from games. Is it worth reflecting on Joshs' opening statement at every game. I cant quote verbatum but it goes a little like this 'this is not an open day skirmish, it is aww2 experience with the emphasis on roleplay and period emersion. Anyone expecting anything other can be refunded' (or something like that). I admit to having 'lonewolfed' at games and yes, you can get some joy playing this way however, i find i get involved in far more meaningful contacts when in squad. with fire and move tactics, protecting oppo's, helping to push on stalled attacks or defending an area and recovering your wounded mates. far more rewarding if done well. :good: Kills are cool but completing objectives well and in the ww2 stylee is better



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Posted : 19/11/2012 7:33 pm




Ian
 Ian
(@ian)
Reputable Member

Thanks josh and team, had a great time on what was a great site. :good:
Yer there was a few issues as been 'mentioned' in above posts but mistakes were made on both sides, but from what I've read almost all those can be put down to people not listening at briefings main and sub unit. Gunman games always have high numbers of players of all experience's, some get the vibe others take time to get it, I've been doing this for 4 years and still make mistakes in the heat of play, new players can't be expected to get it straight away. I take the veiw that without the new players we will end up with clicky 10-20 side games and the hobby fades away. But hey ho that's play war, all the best layed plans go out the window when the battle starts.





Armoury: AGM MP40, AGM Sten MkII, K98K/vsr and Maruzen P38.

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Posted : 19/11/2012 7:53 pm




(@gunman)
Noble Member

Cheers guys and great feedback.
My lack of knowledge of the site was my first concern and the CPs were placed far enough apart so that they could be taken and held with enough time to be re-enforced. I believe we got that bit spot on and let’s face it, the site and the use of vehicles really made the event. Also with 40 new players, there were a lot of guys that needed to pick up the game and find out what we wanted out of them. A brief is never enough and leading by example is a massive part of it. I think everyone bar a few really did get it! It was amazing to watch the units move around be used tactically in the field by commanders that were out of the fight and only using maps to move the troops around.

My gripes can only be placed on my shoulders! I should have included a task list (apologies to Charlie and Martin) for the Allied engineers rather than expecting them to be given tasks organically. Lads, you’re awesome and with the addition of Vickers who plays engineer at most of the events, I dropped a ball there! A promise to all, I will not run another game without a task list, this was the first time in experimenting with organic tasks in a battle and it didn’t work. You don’t know if you don’t try.
Also, not being in the field and running my own game was a mistake, I need to be inside these events from start to finish (again, the first and last time).
Guys that like the silent action, Ramsey is right and I have posted in the organisers section that I will find a roll for the few guys that like to work alone, but I will make this clear, No one goes to war alone and I will not stand for anyone playing out of the spirit of the game.

Most of the field are or were completely oblivious to any issues in the field at all as we try very hard to keep them contained and deal with them so know one has to have their event tarnished. Again, if I was in the field, any issue would have been dealt with by me on the spot and not left until the end of the event.

The Allied command needed a second (which was supposed to be me)to help run the side which may have found guys waiting for the Allied OC to give out orders. This is not an excuse as this is my business, but I was on standby for a family emergency and may have needed to leave the site. I have NOT left a game in 20 years of running events and thank fully still haven’t.

A massive thank you has to go out to my command and admin staff for being flexible and able to roll with the changes we had to make and to all of you, the players from making this weekend still an epic battle weekend, with all the drama that comes with it.
x

Heer Schmidt

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Topic starter Posted : 19/11/2012 8:05 pm




Sgt.Heide
(@sgt-heide)
Illustrious Member

I take the veiw that without the new players we will end up with clicky 10-20 side games and the hobby fades away. But hey ho that's play war, all the best layed plans go out the window when the battle starts.

Don't forget, that long before 100+ player games, this hobby started with 20 a side and, (I'm certain that many will agree with me!) none of those games have been "clicky". I've seen more clickiness at bigger games to be honest, when groups of people think the game revolves around them and their inability to fit in with what the event is actually about but, catered for in order to turn a buck.



When I want your opinion - I'll tell you what it is!

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Posted : 19/11/2012 8:10 pm




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

Lone wolfing to a degree *is* catered for.

If you play as 100 rounds, no grenades sniper you can go off alone. You cant however take objectives, move plot items about or do *anything* other than go after high priority targets.

The point i think is that once you get guys running around in twos ignoring the game structure and changing over objective markers it ruins the other one hundreds peoples game.

I think also for most players this is the ONLY time they get to play in squads, have a story etc.

If you want to free range, wear what you like and play how you like their is a brilliant game written for just this sort of play available at most sites 52 weeks a year, it's called the open day. :)




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Posted : 19/11/2012 8:34 pm




ww2stu
(@ww2stu)
Noble Member

whilst with my spotter on the second day a squad of americans pretty much stood on top of our ambush position before us opening fire, we then became pinned and had to run into a nearby woods, whilst laying very still with my bolt action managed to silently take out 2 of the advancing squads before being almost stepped on again and firing my pistol at the nearest yank with a thompson, i had however run out of ammo and was cut down in a flash.

I was one of the yanks you killed on that day. We had about 13 men looking for you. We split up into smaller squads to try and dig you out. We had taken out your "spotter" and I started to advance towards him body with the BAR but with the woods being so dark I couldnt see you. You then shot me straight dead on the chest. I collapsed backwards, shouting for a medic. At this point I didn't know how far away you were still but I hope you saw me fall and heard my screams and got the satisfaction of the kill. I don't know a great deal of how much more you saw because your attention must of been on the other chaps flanking you but 2 squad mates (johnny and bear) ran into the woods, grabbed my BAR and literally dragged me to safety. I hope you saw that too as it must of looked great from your end. And yes I was the one that looked like I shit myself on the debrief on the second day. :giggle:

Stu

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Posted : 19/11/2012 8:49 pm




(@bigkie)
Prominent Member

Very interesting reading through this thread. A lot of points have been made and are being discussed. But a lot of people who attended this game are experienced with Josh's mindset and rules but even we were on a learning curve with a lot of new and ammended rules that were issued out in the new rule set and its a learning experience we all must go through to help advance the game and the organisers, because unfrotunatley if you dont, there will be a case that you cant please everyone all the time and if you cant give in to an event what you would expect out of it then the whole will suffer.
I am in full support of people wanting to adopt specific roles and for example liked the new Sharpshooter/Sniper variation where as one is a recce role for a squad the other is the more individual role but must come with some more guidance as to the specific game mechanic it can supply.
I hope that we all can discuss things further as with that will come a greater game. :good:
In the words of JFK: 'Dont ask what WW2airsoft can do for you!..etc..... :ghey: '

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Posted : 19/11/2012 8:54 pm




Ian
 Ian
(@ian)
Reputable Member

I take the veiw that without the new players we will end up with clicky 10-20 side games and the hobby fades away. But hey ho that's play war, all the best layed plans go out the window when the battle starts.

Don't forget, that long before 100+ player games, this hobby started with 20 a side and, (I'm certain that many will agree with me!) none of those games have been "clicky". I've seen more clickiness at bigger games to be honest, when groups of people think the game revolves around them and their inability to fit in with what the event is actually about but, catered for in order to turn a buck.

Never said they 'were' clicky only that they could end up with that situation IMO.
Fully agree with what you say about some groups at bigger games.





Armoury: AGM MP40, AGM Sten MkII, K98K/vsr and Maruzen P38.

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Posted : 19/11/2012 8:59 pm




Universal Gunner
(@universal-gunner)
Reputable Member

I like to think in the frame of mind of fanatical soldier who would die for fatherland with very disregard for my life. Why should this be suppressed? why should a group of infantry sit around without a sentry because they know that they wont be ambushed, they would always have someone on watch that close to the front. lone wolf groups in my opinion as long as they have an overall object only add to the playing experience.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. We wouldn't be having this discussion if the German mentality was as you describe because World War 2 would have been over a hell of a lot quicker probably 1939 in Poland. Blitzkrieg is the complete antithesis of what you are describing and my experience of the German mentality is that they do as they are told.

A dead soldier is of no use to the Fatherland.

A lone wolf by definition should only have one life as there is no one to medic them. Snipers should be trying not to be seen and not getting killed as what is the point of all that skill and training being lost. I think Ramsay's point is that it is very easy to think you are good at these things when you are firing from a gun that makes no noise or can stand up out of range and in any event it is only little bits of plastic coming back at you rather than actual bullets. Lone wolves seem to often attack large groups as if they are the Taliban when they are hopelessly outnumbered, it seems militarily illogical without a clear tactical reason other than to just get some airsoft kills.










I have a small skewer hidden in the collar of my jumping jacket, and a razorblade in my gaiter, as well as my knife.

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Posted : 19/11/2012 8:59 pm




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

You see i'll be picky here.

i remember specifically telling you in the last 30 mins of Sunday that going out as a two man team was ok as otherwise you'd not get back into the game at that point.

However it was clearly stated at the beginning of Saturday that you can't leave a CP as less than three men and you cant move up or attack as a two or one.

Black and white, its cheating really if everyone else has to adhere to the rules and ref hasnt given you permission to do it. In reality we have to occasionally send guys out in twos if it looks like they could potentially miss a lot of the game but you shouldnt just be deciding to do this for yourself when it's clearly stated in the written and verbal game rules that this is not 'ok'.

Hope you see my point, i'm not having a go at you it's just everyone else is playing by a different set of rules to you... i mean reducing it to the absurd, what happens if someone decides they dont like bandage system and decides that their 'camo' gives them an extra hit as its so good? What if someone decides their vehicle is indestructable? What if i'd decided to 'paradrop' the FJ behind the allies CP without telling anyone else?

It's only a game when we're all playing by the same rules, you start making stuff up for yourself and it rapidly starts to go downhill :)

If you want to play as a lone sniper that is catered for, if you want to be with your mates but have an accurate rifle be a sharp shooter.

But its a choice of 'lone' or 'section'.

hmmm bigkie beat me to it a bit there.... look at the bigger picture. The total enjoyment of the game is greater than everyones individual part.




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Posted : 19/11/2012 9:00 pm




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

BTW , i've opened up a thread in general about lone wolfing,

could a mod possibly trim this thread and move the discussion on lone/section play to there perhaps to keep the thread relevant to synopsis of player feedback?




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

ReplyQuote
Posted : 19/11/2012 9:01 pm




(@prideofengland)
Noble Member

Lone wolfing to a degree *is* catered for.

If you play as 100 rounds, no grenades sniper you can go off alone. You cant however take objectives, move plot items about or do *anything* other than go after high priority targets.

The point i think is that once you get guys running around in twos ignoring the game structure and changing over objective markers it ruins the other one hundreds peoples game.

I think also for most players this is the ONLY time they get to play in squads, have a story etc.

If you want to free range, wear what you like and play how you like their is a brilliant game written for just this sort of play available at most sites 52 weeks a year, it's called the open day. :)

Yes but I think this sniper team was trying to fulfil the new sniper role of Josh's amended rules and came in for some criticism for it? so I think to suggest they were trying to free range in an open day sort of way is perhaps a bit harsh. Now Im not personally into the sniper role as I enjoy being part of a squad far more but if the role is allowed for people will use it as it was really a new role there may have been some confusion. Just out of interest did German command give the sniper objectives, area's to operate in and priority targets to take out or were they just left to their own devices?

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Posted : 19/11/2012 9:09 pm




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

at this point retreating would have impacted greatly on the thrill of the game and a huge loss to the experience. .

I can't help feel this misses the point somewhat. What about the experience of the other 106 players who were expecting the advertised squad combats, who expected the enemy to have to break and retire after being mauled?

See what i mean, i totally get it that it was more fun for you but its a bit of an 'im all right jack' attitude tbh.

The point is that if you'd have come up to me on sat or sunday and said 'can i change my role to sniper'. I'd have tasked you with a sniper role.

If you wanted to stick with your buddies then you'd have to have stuck as the squads designated sharpshooter, the key word there being squad.

Prideofengland, no axis player came up to me and asked if they could have sniper tasks and as nobody had told me they were playing as a sniper when the zugs were set up saturday morning *and i specifically asked* if everyone were happy with them.... nobody was tasked with sniper tasks.

I'm not a mind reader and while i can ask all 50 players on the axis side which role they are playing and make a note of it we'd have even more delay to starting if we did.

i dont feel i'm a particularly bossy leader, at all 'orders groups' i always say 'any questions, any suggestions' and take them on board. i also always say 'is everyone happy with the plan, if its crap and you've got a better idea - tell me'.... nobody said anything.

The point is the rules stated both written and verbally said:

NO MOVEMENT ON OBJECTIVES OR OFFENSIVE OPS WITH LESS THAN THREE MEN and that if you got down to two you had to withdraw.

They also clearly said you could be a lone sniper *or* a marksman in a squad.

If you run around in a pair and enageg the enemy singly or in pairs and you're not a sniper 'because its more fun for me' then you're not playing for your team and you're not playing by the spirit of the rules let alone the letter are you?

Basically 12 times a year we get to do these games and they sort of rely on everyone giving up some personal freedoms for an immersive environment.

Having played at everything from full on milsim to sisk events i think Gunman *personally* have a very good balance of 'realism' and 'freedom' for players.




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

ReplyQuote
Posted : 19/11/2012 10:10 pm




(@bigkie)
Prominent Member

at this point retreating would have impacted greatly on the thrill of the game and a huge loss to the experience. .[/quote

I can't help feel this misses the point somewhat. What about the experience of the other 106 players who were expecting the advertised squad combats, who expected the enemy to have to break and retire after being mauled?

See what i mean, i totally get it that it was more fun for you but its a bit of an 'im all right jack' attitude tbh.

The point is that if you'd have come up to me on sat or sunday and said 'can i change my role to sniper'. I'd have tasked you with a sniper role.

If you wanted to stick with your buddies then you'd have to have stuck as the squads designated sharpshooter, the key word there being squad.

Prideofengland, no axis player came up to me and asked if they could have sniper tasks and as nobody had told me they were playing as a sniper when the zugs were set up saturday morning *and i specifically asked* if everyone were happy with them.... nobody was tasked with sniper tasks.

I'm not a mind reader and while i can ask all 50 players on the axis side which role they are playing and make a note of it we'd have even more delay to starting if we did.

i dont feel i'm a particularly bossy leader, at all 'orders groups' i always say 'any questions, any suggestions' and take them on board. i also always say 'is everyone happy with the plan, if its crap and you've got a better idea - tell me'.... nobody said anything.

The point is the rules stated both written and verbally said:

NO MOVEMENT ON OBJECTIVES OR OFFENSIVE OPS WITH LESS THAN THREE MEN and that if you got down to two you had to withdraw.

They also clearly said you could be a lone sniper *or* a marksman in a squad.

If you run around in a pair and enageg the enemy singly or in pairs and you're not a sniper 'because its more fun for me' then you're not playing for your team and you're not playing by the spirit of the rules let alone the letter are you?

Basically 12 times a year we get to do these games and they sort of rely on everyone giving up some personal freedoms for an immersive environment.

Having played at everything from full on milsim to sisk events i think Gunman *personally* have a very good balance of 'realism' and 'freedom' for players.

fully support these points gadge, well answered mate.

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Posted : 19/11/2012 10:22 pm




Owen
 Owen
(@owen)
Estimable Member

Very enjoyable day on Saturday, can't say for Sunday as unfortunately I had to leave Saturday night. Saturday got off to a stunning start rolling out in convoy to the the Axis HQ. The day followed up with riding on the back of bikes, setting (off) Land mines, Artillery Shells coming down into the trees, setting up to repel attacks, I was sold.

By far the highlight (Out of a series of highlights) was being in the three man Armour Hunter team with a compressed Gas Nerf Panzerschreck under orders to take out that armored Car. We spent an hour and half moving up behind the German counter offensive, trailing after the noise of the engine from one side of the sight and back again, as well as a maddening section at the central CP where we could see but couldn't get close enough. Was enjoyable watching the battle unfold. Forty and I providing scouting and protection for Marc who patiently waited for his shot(s) which we did from a perfect ambush point in the end. I think Marc has a new love in his life and is demanding a Panzerschreck of his own, his Armour destruction medal is on order.

Things to make for next game (Arnhem pt2?): Panzerschreck and a Field Radio.

Also I will say Gadge, you are a bloody good commander. Came across fully immersed in what your doing but without making anyone feel uncomfortable, and gave good firm direction with friendliness to back it up. :good: Thanks to Chomers too for ferrying us around for the first half the day, deploying out the back of the vehicle never got old.

Gripes? A few bulletproof allies, the occasional incredulous moment of an adult talking in a belittling manner to another adult, and the fore mentioned lunchgate where a group sitting around eating said to a few of us reloading at a mobile CP "I can see some allies down there about to take that CP, you might want to go stop them". But that's about it, love these Gunman events and look forward to plenty more. Hopefully the guys who ran Corridor (ASG?) will be back again next year too.


ReplyQuote
Posted : 19/11/2012 11:01 pm




dieselmonkey
(@dieselmonkey)
Noble Member

By far the highlight (Out of a series of highlights) was being in the three man Armour Hunter team with a compressed Gas Nerf Panzerschreck under orders to take out that armored Car. We spent an hour and half moving up behind the German counter offensive, trailing after the noise of the engine from one side of the sight and back again, as well as a maddening section at the central CP where we could see but couldn't get close enough. Was enjoyable watching the battle unfold. Forty and I providing scouting and protection for Marc who patiently waited for his shot(s) which we did from a perfect ambush point in the end. I think Marc has a new love in his life and is demanding a Panzerschreck of his own, his Armour destruction medal is on order.

Ah, you were the tank hunters! Brilliant job, you all got into it 100% I can't believe you spent so long setting up a successful ambush!

If the metal tank hadn't fallen off my tank destruction badge over the weekend, i'd have given Marc mine! :D

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Posted : 19/11/2012 11:09 pm




(@mattywheels)
Noble Member

The thing that I found most 'jarring' about the event, was the way some guys decided to stand around in the open, out of gun range and just watch the action. I'm sure organisers in the past have encouraged tactical discipline i.e. not gormlessly standing exposed in the middle of a track safe in the knowledge that you are out of range. We commented as we (The Germans) were moving up through the woods towards the end of the Saturday, that if it'll be real life, the six soldiers guilty of this would have been mowed down by an MG long ago! I know it isnt 'real life', but to me see folks acting in such a manner really destroys some of the illusion of what we are all trying to achieve...

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Posted : 19/11/2012 11:27 pm




(@prideofengland)
Noble Member

Prideofengland, no axis player came up to me and asked if they could have sniper tasks and as nobody had told me they were playing as a sniper when the zugs were set up saturday morning *and i specifically asked* if everyone were happy with them.... nobody was tasked with sniper tasks.

Ah fair play Gadge, I apologize, having seen a German dressed in sniper attire I had assumed He had gone in that role not simply gone off piste :oops:

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Posted : 19/11/2012 11:57 pm




Simon
(@simon)
Estimable Member

I thought you did very well Gadge and you were very respectful in all your orders, which made me want to fulfil your requirements, without question, now I just need to work on my ability to actually fulfil these requirements affectively :oops:

Leadership is about people wanting to follow you, dictatorship is about forcing people to follow you.

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Posted : 20/11/2012 12:13 am




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