German preparation for a winter war...

Why didnt the US have cold weather kit in any quantity

Because they thought they would be in Berlin by Christmas. Well that's what I heard

yes, an interesting one this.

The germans went through norway without the sufficient winter clothing they should of had and they new it was going to be a white war . So with the lessons learned from norway, why didnt the implement them early on during russia ? . Despite the expectations of germany winning the war before snow fell, you would of thought that they would of prepared themselfs ? even if the war was won, they still would of have had post operation clear ups, thus still needing winter warfare clothing.

Do you think it was the fact that norway was a raging success, that hitler and his military commanders thought russia in white would of been a walk over aswell ? .

the pictures i have seen of norway, dont look half as bad as russia, i think on average the temps were about -15 to -20 . but russia was hitting -50 , so could that of been the big blunder due to hitting an all time low and raging snow storms ?

regarding the yanks.. it still gets fooking cold before xmas over there. Imagine now, here -2 , would you still expect to have normal clothing or winter clothing at -2 ?

Hans

I think it was definitely down to over confidence, at least initally. The whole kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down thing. They expected rapid total capitulation which would have meant they wouldn't have been in the field by winter.

Why they didn't make preparations once this was clearly not going to happen is beyond me. Maybe they thought it would effect moral/offensive determination if you started issuing winter clothing as the troops would then know they wouldn't be home soon and would have to sit out the winter. Whatever happened, it was daft.

Yes, the arrogance of perceived total domination may have backfired on them.

Is there perhaps a thing to be said about the morale of prepping troops with winter gear before they really need it? Perhaps there was a thought that too much preparation would have people thinking too long term about their objectives, and thus getting demoralised about the idea of it. I dunno, just a thought.

It went beyond uniform items as well. The rifle oil that the Germans had was inadequate for severe winter conditions, as was the cold weather running ability of the Panzers. The Germans repeated the mistake of Napoleon when it came to the Russian winter.

I recall reading an account somewhere, long ago that, before the war, German advisors actually helped the Russians to develop cold weather gear suitable for Russian winters!

Why Lardy asks? Because Hitler's dogmatic faith in the invincibility of the German war machine had overtaken reality, he wasn't listening to what he was being told. And because political desire often doesn't correlate to reality on the ground. Why would HM Government send British troops into Afghanistan in insufficient numbers and without adequate means of protection or transport? Lack of planning, lack of resources, lack of consultation with commanders.

Russia didn't capitulate and tanks and trucks ground to a halt in the winter freeze and lines of supply stopped. I've just been reading a book about Hitler's Panzer warfare throughout the war and there is a bit here:
Guderian explained that he had lost more men from frostbite than from gunfire because they were still clothed in summer uniforms and the winter boots, vest, gloves and woollen hats they needed were either non-existent or hopelessly worn out.
That's not true' yelled Hitler 'The Quartermaster-General told me that winter clothing had been issued.'
Guderian agreed that it had been issued but it had never arrived. It was stuck on Warsaw station as there were no trains to take it forward. When he had asked for it to be brought forward by truck in September and October his request had been refused. Now it was too late as the roads were impassable.
Hitler sent for the QM who confirmed this was true. But the only result of this was that Goebbels ran a propaganda campaign to collect winter clothes for the soldiers on the Eastern Front. But that was all it was - a propaganda campaign. Nothing that was collected reached the front.

I seem to recall reading that the US troops at Bastogne were also often inadequately clothed because of supply problems. The kit was there or thereabouts but in depots or trucks enroute.

I think that lots of these questionable decisions can be blamed on Hitler personally. He enjoyed micro-managing so many aspects of the Wehrmacht. His Generals, who presumably knew better, either kow-towed to the Big Man or spoke out and were then fired and replaced with more Yes men.

Having just finished Beevor's Stalingrad it seems pretty clear that the whole eastern campaign changed from a military strategy to a Hitler vanity project in a matter of weeks.

Another factor was that Germany couldn't afford winter clothing. Panzer driver Henry Metelmann said that the food he received when made a POW was immeasurably better than he'd ever had during the war, even the early days.

so far all answers are correct. The logistical issue also played a part on both sides. Too far too fast. Hitler was briefed on the situation in Russia but in true egomanicial style refused to allow his troops to stay where they were and contiuned to push forward. Once this situation had become screamingly apparent, he was in no position to provide winter clothing. There was no quick way of getting them to the troops.
Over confidence is the down fall of many dictators. Also you must remember that most of the landsers were on foot. the concept of a mechanised war really comes from the rapid advances of the panzers. foot or horses were really the order of teh day for most of the german forces. Any of us who have slogged on foot in the various services know you try to keep your kit as light as possible.

As for the americans, pretty much the same idea. over confidence equaling under equipping. the only difference was allied supply got better as the war progressed.

okay, from reading the osprey book, US army 1941-45, i recall that the infantry were in bastogne before the airborne, and were much better equipt, but with the urgent need for reenforcements, which werent thought were needed, who happened to be the airborne divisions, they were immediatly bought in under very low supplies.

they ran out of m43 trousers with the cargo pockets on.
the m1942 greatcoats were very thin with the airborne lines, and those that were issued got very heavy due to the fact that they absorbed the water condensation so were ditched.

there was also the lack of good camo, hence the reason why they made helmet cover's from bed sheets, and coveralls out of them too.

the question is, why they didnt develope winter warfare eqiupment, russia or no russia ?

the question is, why they didnt develope winter warfare eqiupment, russia or no russia ?

They did.

okay, from reading the osprey book, US army 1941-45, i recall that the infantry were in bastogne before the airborne, and were much better equipt, but with the urgent need for reenforcements, which werent thought were needed, who happened to be the airborne divisions, they were immediatly bought in under very low supplies.

they ran out of m43 trousers with the cargo pockets on.
the m1942 greatcoats were very thin with the airborne lines, and those that were issued got very heavy due to the fact that they absorbed the water condensation so were ditched.

there was also the lack of good camo, hence the reason why they made helmet cover's from bed sheets, and coveralls out of them too.

The thing about bulge was the allies were assuming that the Germans would sit back and lick their wounds. So the allies settled in for a holding action. Supply would have been on a needed basis. The bulge assault took them by surprise. no time to equip.

Interesting discussion, adverse weather conditions have always been a deciding factor in operations.
It might be worth considering that most armies during winter consolidated and limited actions to small patrols.
The Germans like most european armies of the time had more in common with 19th century military thinking in comparison to modern forces, in that they relied on completing large operations by winter or at least being able to settle down to a reasonably fixed base and then moving again when the cold weather had dissipated. This is backed up by Mr Metelmanns book where during winter he states that it was common practise to commandeer or move into the homes of Russian peasants until Spring arrived. This concept wasn`t helped by the Russians attempt to destroy structures during their initial retreat therefore denying the Germans any type of decent shelter.
It should be remembered that most of the Russians knowledge about winter warfare they learned from their experiences during the Finnish campaign including suitable oils for small arms and how to keep their vehicles running despite the extreme weather conditions.
It could be argued that the Russian armed forces were the first to adopt modern thinking and realise that if they equipped their troops sufficiently, then fighting all year round was distinctly possible.
It`s also relevant that Russia was a very basic country in that it had few metalled roads making even a simple move of a few miles difficult as the tracks quickly got churned up and turned into mush thereby limiting the supply of logistics to rail.

Our army is hardly well equipped for the desert and we have been fighting there for years.

Our army is hardly well equipped for the desert and we have been fighting there for years.

It could be argued that the quality of current kit is due to underfunding, poor management of procurement procedures and lack of foresight by staff officers.
Interesting comparison as whilst the German high command probably didn`t envisage being stuck in a Russian winter, the recent British staff probably didn`t envisage being in Afg for this long or at least running the type of operations they have been involved in.
Which begs the question, how many military `yes men` were involved in the original operational planning for Afg. Were they lead by fear of damaging their own careers if they spoke up, or was it down to the old problem of simply underestimating the enemy.

due to underfunding, poor management of procurement procedures and lack of foresight by staff officers.

Exactly the case with the Germans. What chance did they have with that idiot egotist Hitler cocking up every move.

they had a programme about this onR4 the other day - the problem with our army is that the contracts are rolled out ten years in advance or something silly like that - also the tender process is apparently so lengthy that by the time we actually get the stuff thats needed it isnt any more. we are pretty crap at logistic it seems. The commander they had on the radio was very derogatory about our archaic supply procedures.......

Insofar as the germans are concerned i reckon they didnt want to ruin the nicely cut lines of their HUgo Boss uniforms with tatty wooly jumpers!

Our army is hardly well equipped for the desert and we have been fighting there for years.

It could be argued that the quality of current kit is due to underfunding, poor management of procurement procedures and lack of foresight by staff officers.
Interesting comparison as whilst the German high command probably didn`t envisage being stuck in a Russian winter, the recent British staff probably didn`t envisage being in Afg for this long or at least running the type of operations they have been involved in.
Which begs the question, how many military `yes men` were involved in the original operational planning for Afg. Were they lead by fear of damaging their own careers if they spoke up, or was it down to the old problem of simply underestimating the enemy.

The Germans repeated the mistake of Napoleon when it came to the Russian winter.

The only lesson ever learnt from history, is that people never learn from history.

Someone famous said that, I can't remember who, but thought it was quite pithy and appropriate.

EDIT - it was George Bernard Shaw and this what he actually said "We learn from history that we learn nothing from history." I prefer my version!