Playing The Baddies

Loads of good points already thrown up.

To some extent, it does come down to the fact that it happened some time ago. As has already been said, the front line soldier was following orders, drafted from civlian life in many cases, under a totalitarian regime. What about portraying soldiers in the Napoleonic period? The Tudor period? Vikings ? Romans? The further it goes back, the less important it seems to become about what atrocities happened. Although you could certainly draw similarities between the ethnic cleansing of the Balkans war and what the Germans / Nazis did in WWII, I would not feel comfortable portraying a Serbian soldier of that period.

For me, WWII was portrayed as something exciting and something which captured the imagination of 8-year-olds like me when Warlord comic and Commando books were around. We all now know that war is hell, but a certain boyhood fascination still holds us all, or else we wouldn't do this. I think the fact that atrocities and genocide occurred in what we perhaps think of as a "civilised" society, and still within living memory for many, is the crux of this discussion, but the major atrocities did not happen on the front line where the troops were, and we portray actions between troops and not the inner workings of the Third Reich or Stalin's regime.

I suppose that the real question is how much has 65-odd years insulated us from the grim reality? Do we even want to acnowledge the grim reality? Does it matter if we don't?
If we all had the right skin colour, would we do Rwandan Civil War Airsoft? Would the argument:
"We simply portray the front line soldier - no big political objectives, no ideology. We do what we are tasked to do" cut it?

Gah, several questions there. See what happens when you over-analyse!

Yes, war is grim, both on macro and micro scales. Running around woods pretending to shoot people is, on a simple level, a daft and facile thing to do. But undeniably fun. Some are content with an 'its fun' reason, others are looking a bit deeper. But I'm pretty clear in my head the reality of 65 years ago. Gawd, somewhere on this planet exactly the same grimness is happening right now.

All over the country airsoft games are being run with scenarios of middle eastern or Balkan types for example - although none I suspect with the the depth of commitment and integrity that the WW2 genre has (possibly Vietnam come close although hardly anyone knows about the 'baddies' except they wore pyjamas and coolie hats ).

The difference is that the Nazis were the first to engineer and implement the systematic destruction of an entire race.

Again almost certainly not true.
Once again we Brits must carry the can. I'm sure the only total, complete example of genocide was us. We wiped out the whole native population, we had help from some quarters but it was mostly us. Find a Palawa?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Followers_of_Palawa

The Followers of Palawa were an ancient group that studied the Force and midichlorians. They fled their homeworld of Palawa to the nearby planet of Bunduki after Palawa was destroyed in a long-ago war somehow involving the Jedi Council. The Followers of Palawa developed the martial art of Teräs Käsi as a means to keep the Jedi in check, presumably so that another world would not be destroyed by the Jedi Council. They also mastered a deep trance technique which they could use to sleep for decades without aging. During the First Great Schism, many of the Followers, including Arden Lyn, fell to the dark side and joined the Minions of Xendor.

The Followers were still in existence, as hermits, on Bunduki, in the years following the Clone Wars. The mother of Zan and Zu Pike placed her young daughters in their care during the first decade of the Galactic Empire.

???

http://www.tasmanianaboriginal.com.au/l ... palawa.htm

The Palawa Aboriginal People of Tasmania, Australia.

The Palawa represent the hardline political group that speaks through the TAC (Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre). The TAC has a spokesperson, Michael Mansell, who claims he speaks for the entire Aboriginal community but he only speaks for a minority of the Palawa community. There is considerable confusing within the broader Tasmanian community as to who is and is not Aboriginal. This is a situation that TAC Palawa have encouraged.

???

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Palawa_Joko

The undead lord of the Desolation, Palawa once controlled the valleys leading north out of Elona from his strategically positioned Bone Palace. Commanding hordes of undead followers raised from ancient tombs, he invaded Vabbi, intent on conquering it and using its riches to make him even more powerful. After he was defeated by the great Kournan hero, Turai Ossa, his body is said to have been imprisoned beneath a huge stone plinth. Many villainous individuals have attempted to commune with the spirit of the Scourge of Vabbi. As long as his history lives on, people will remember his name...and as the saying goes, history is still being written.

???

Sorry, I'm confused...

Loads of good points already thrown up.

For me, WWII was portrayed as something exciting and something which captured the imagination of 8-year-olds like me when Warlord comic and Commando books were around.

And consider that the 'golden age' of war comics, war movies and the like was the 1960s and early 1970s when the 'grim reality' was far more in living memory, most peoples dads or grandads had fought in the previous war, but there was less of an objection to recreating it in mass media.

Given that with the exception of a few pieces (panzer G-man, hellman of hammer force and peckinpahs 'cross of iron') all germans were dyed in the wool goose stepping party members.....

(oh and of course 'the eagle has landed')

I suppose that the real question is how much has 65-odd years insulated us from the grim reality? Do we even want to acnowledge the grim reality? Does it matter if we don't?

If we all had the right skin colour, would we do Rwandan Civil War Airsoft? Would the argument:
"We simply portray the front line soldier - no big political objectives, no ideology. We do what we are tasked to do" cut it?

Wouldn't that be "Machetesoft"? Bit like LARPing with big foam things but you'd have to round the other team up first and make them lie down in the road before boffing them with your length of grey pipe lagging!!!!!!

Circular argument folks - One I've seen umpteen times before over decades of re-enactment - Simply follow your inner self - Everyone does it for their own reasons - some worthy, some shallow, some simply trifling others downright sinister or sexual...... This question is much like a debate on religion - We all have our own views on the thing and in most cases and circumstances it's best not to debate it too closely. It works, be content.
IF people have visited Holocaust sites - and I have and some I found moving, some I found frankly boring and others I found doubtful - And it turns them off - so be it. It's personal preference and it should be respected. - Personally I have a good grasp of the politics, social and military causes, aspects, mechanics and outcomes of WW1 and 2 - I UNDERSTAND what I am doing. I'm happy with that.

I hope this helps others to rationalise things should they feel the need to.

It's also worth noting that preventing ethnic cleansing was not the reason that Britain declared war, or why America later joined in.

Nope America was very pro German/Hitler in the 30s.

I have some interesting footage somewhere of the American media singing the praises of the nazi party. I think its on one of the 'World at War' discs.

History needs to remember everyone who was involved. Albeit controvertial in some people's eyes, I believe it would be wrong to wipe clean the reference to X unit who did y and z bad things. At the end of the day, no-one is glamourising anything, or condoning it.

Like comments before, there have been and will be far worse attrocities committed, whether it be the death of one person or 10s of millions.

I would say that those who chose to do German forces, shouldn't have to worry about which unit they portray, afterall its a hobby and not a cult following. I have no problem with playing against anyone who choses to take on the mantle of X unit because they did something once upon a time, especially if it was integral to the game. To re-consider your point of view in stopping playing as said unit is a personal choice, but as people have said, WWii airsoft would not exist without those chosing to be the Oposition to those of us who chose to be allies. So you all have my respect.

Playing the 'baddies' - Kermit made me do it

Nope America was very pro German/Hitler in the 30s.

I have some interesting footage somewhere of the American media singing the praises of the nazi party. I think its on one of the 'World at War' discs.

And indeed there were many great supporters of eugenics in the US, and policies were enacted including sterilisation of a great swathe of disabled people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Eugenics_Society

The British Eugenics Society only changed name in 1989! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Eugenics_Society

In fact many countries have enacted forceable sterilization: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization

It's just not as clean cut as some would like to think.

Having said all of that. What we do is in no way related to any of the above. No one should question what uniform they dress up in based on the actions of the political movements behind the soldiers that fought throughout the 40's.

HS

[All the Palawa stuff]
Sorry, I'm confused...

The Tasmanian party was closest.

Type 'the Black War'. I think that was what he was getting at. Palawa was the name of the Tasmanian Aborigines I believe, later used in the political party

The difference is that the Nazis were the first to engineer and implement the systematic destruction of an entire race.

Again almost certainly not true.
Once again we Brits must carry the can. I'm sure the only total, complete example of genocide was us. We wiped out the whole native population, we had help from some quarters but it was mostly us. Find a Palawa?

For several reasons I know a little more than most on this (daddy was one of the stolen). But the real tragedy of the Tasmanian Aboriginal was that the final killer blow was rather more a cock up, than a conspiracy, compounded by well meaning but ignorant Victorian/imperial values. Yep, we (the British empire) effectively committed true genocide by mistake!

Due to (Australian) federal law, you need only 1/16th aboriginal blood in you and you can legally claim to be aboriginal, I qualify! There are several Tasmanians that claim they are Palawa under that qualification as well and are still campaigning for the return of their ancestors bones and artifacts from museums across the world.

Back to playing Germans, some of us have to be careful and consider others, but when you play cowboys and Indians, sometimes you gotta play the other side. I think it's good that people still get riled up about the ideology and the iconography, now if we can just teach them that the nazis got to power through seductive political spin,that these days those the follow the ideology don't wear uniforms and that the attitude of "my country right or wrong" did the rest, we can finally beat the beast.