the creeping approach of stitch counting

yep its a great group and the 'kamerad'erie at games is incredible!

Neil as we spend a hell of a lot of time and money at our own expense making these games happen, i feel we have right to set the standards we'd like to game at ourselves.

I'm sorry if you disagree with me (this is my opinion btw not CiA as a group), If you want to have a go at running a WWII game along a better system, i'd be happy to come along and have a day off and be able to play rahter than run around making sure everything worked well for the players.

I think to some extent their is alot of "Liberty" tacken with kit, and acepted, some uniquness can eaven be fun for everyone, look at Tiny and orta at the Arnhem game, they were in propper panzer kit but with a different head dress(I know a few ppl didnt like that tho but I loved it), however, as Yith and gadge have said elswere, just because you have a uniform doesnt mean to say it is apropiate. I would love the chance to use my British Jungle and Desert gear, but it will have to wait for a game themed around that, just as wearing an algemine SS or SD uniform is unaceptable for a game based in a militery complex.

Sorry about the big paragraph.

For the record:

If somebody puts up pictures and asks for comments then they are bound to get informative comments sometimes critical.

I dont take offence when someone tells me my kits wrong, i just change it if i feel im bothered that its wrong.

Its not stitch counting this is how it is...

when we set up comrades in arms and the first game it was to provide the sort of WWII game *we* wanted to to play in and hoped everybody else would share our vision.

We set some standards, to be honest they are not amazingly high standards either, we'd still be happy for someone to play in a brown , black or green boliersuit and appropriate soft hat.. how can that be stitch counting.

I know you're disappointed Neil that there is a 16+ age limit meaning your son cannot play and you are also unhappy that we didnt really want night vision used in our games.

I'm sorry you feel so strongly about those decisions and i only hope that when you play at UCAP you see that those decisions and judgments were not made arbitrarily.

if you were unhappy with my comments about your cufftitle why not speak to me face to face when we spoke at CR, i'd have happily talked about it then, seems a shame to bring it up now like this.

I think Yith said to me that we do have a minimum entry level to the games and thats stil there and very accessible but some people want to go to the next level or 'realism' if we will, i think everybody on this forum contributes to making that happen for those that want to.

I knew next to nothing about German kit before deciding to get my Heer loadout and the advice off this forum has been invaluable, when i got things wrong i didn't get angry i just changed it...

Yup... as Syd says, if you have appropriate kit available then its really only common courtesy to use it at a themed event.

If you don't have the stuff then just try your best and by all means don't spend the extra money if you don't want to!

We don't expect anyone to spend extra cash beyond our minimum requirements, but where something can be improved for no cost and very little effort, then I think that should be encouraged!

If we don't, then why are we bothering to do themed events? We may as well go back to just wearing DPM and using motorised box mags in MP5s.

For me, and I hope everyone else, the fun is partially in putting the effort in to get the look right!

The kit 'restrictions' (more like guidelines) on the website are where we stand with regard to looking right when you attend events.

If we do nitpick it's because people have asked for an opinion, not because we will turn people away if the kit's not quite right. I know mine isn't 100% accurate.

There were people in civvies at Arnhem (I was one of them) so people didn't need to adhere to just Brit or German restrictions and I saw Flecktarn at CR.

Thanks for bringing up any concerns though, I'd rather people voice opinion that sit at home moaning about it without us ever knowing!

Cheers!

HS

BTW...

If I personally have made any seemingly derogatory comments about what kit has been worn then I think it has always been in order to deter people from turning up as walk-ons at re-enactment events in really inappropriate kit.

For instance we allow Belgian Denisons. For our purposes they are fine. However take them to a re-enactment event and you'll quite probably be a laughing stock... I wouldn't want that!

hi gadge
I think you've got me slightly wrong - I think the games are great and have enjoyed them immensly(even when wet). I appreciate how much effort people put in and I have always been very vocal in my praise of the CIA efforts. I am not challenging or criticising the organisers.

I am saying what i am because it is a stated aim of CIA to be as inclusive as possible. I was merely pointing out that there have been quite a lot of threads lately which are getting bogged down in minute historical (in)accuracies to the point of someone commenting to another person that they shouldn't use a particular battledress because they had the wrong insignia. So on the one hand it is a stated aim of CIA to be inclusive but on the forums people are getting told in great detail what they can and cant wear.
my comments have nothing to do with age limits (why bring that up it was a private discussion) or not being allowed night vision, although everyone got really serious about what was essentially a lighthearted comment.and thats what I am referring to

If more stringent uniform requirements are to be imposed thats cool, its your perogative, but then it becomes exclusive. thats all i was saying.

So on the one hand it is a stated aim of CIA to be inclusive but on the forums people are getting told in great detail what they can and cant wear.

I'd disagree. It's all been suggestions as to what people wear.

As long as they turn up in at least the minimum CiA requirements then we have no problems.

I look at it this way:

I wouldn't turn up to a Blackhawk Down event in Brit DPM, I wouldn't turn up to a Falklands themed event in US SF gear. It's all about having kit thats likely to have been used in the specific theatre of operations. Hell, i'm currently putting together a Ramcke Brigade FJ impression for fun - but I wont be turning up to a NWE themed event in it (much as i'd love to - cotton is FAR more comfy for the summer!), as it simply wasn't used in the NWE theatre of operations.

With regards to criticism of kit itself, there is a fine line between constructive criticism and overt criticism - and in a lot of cases its difficult to tell the difference between the two, simply because it's the written word, therefore we miss out on an important facet of communication thats present when its a face-to-face conversation - body language.

My 2p on the subject....

Fair comments Neil.

However i must insist that we are inclusive, only when someone says 'is this right?' then they have sometimes been told 'no'.

I mention the age issue as you brought it up in a public thread on this forum, i also mention the NVG issue as i feel that you perhaps are unhappy with CiAs decisions in both these cases.

Once again, we are inclusive the minimum requirement have not changed but we do hope that some players will continue to do the genre proud by raising the bar.

All i personally ask is that the uniform chosen is relevant to the theatre of operations and the time period, its just common sense at a themed game really. I dont realy care how accurate it is , just that its plausible or it makes a mockery of a scenario.

The 'in service date' on some kit is also vital for keeping the spriti of the game, its why we ban PMR radios, camelbacks, micro night vision or NV goggles and underbarrle grenade launchers.

We have to set a benchmark standard somewhere, i personally feel that 'boilersuit and any cloth or leather webbing' is about as low as we can go....

Personally, I feal that because of the overall cheepness of WW2 kit and guns then everyone can get a recently spot on impression, eaven re-enactment grade.

However I do apreciate that other ppl have different priorites and abbilites where money is concerned so this aproach may be exclusive.

As for stich counting, I have left groups that have demanded not just where you get your stuff but also what items of kit from whitch vendor, and then demmaanded 90% turnout to events that average 2 a month all over the country, That is exesive.

Yup... now that's stitch counting!

"Thou shalt go to lost battalions for you tunic and trousers, but if thou dost look at his field cap you will be visited with boils and your eyes fall out"

I look at it this way:

With regards to criticism of kit itself, there is a fine line between constructive criticism and overt criticism - and in a lot of cases its difficult to tell the difference between the two, simply because it's the written word, therefore we miss out on an important facet of communication thats present when its a face-to-face conversation - body language.

My 2p on the subject....

I am with you on that

I look at it this way:

I wouldn't turn up to a Blackhawk Down event in Brit DPM, I wouldn't turn up to a Falklands themed event in US SF gear. It's all about having kit thats likely to have been used in the specific theatre of operations. Hell, i'm currently putting together a Ramcke Brigade FJ impression for fun - but I wont be turning up to a NWE themed event in it (much as i'd love to - cotton is FAR more comfy for the summer!), as it simply wasn't used in the NWE theatre of operations.

With regards to criticism of kit itself, there is a fine line between constructive criticism and overt criticism - and in a lot of cases its difficult to tell the difference between the two, simply because it's the written word, therefore we miss out on an important facet of communication thats present when its a face-to-face conversation - body language.

My 2p on the subject....

I couldnt have put it better myself.

My loadout can hardly be called accurate.

yes its a black panzer outfit,

but i dont have a tank, the charicter i reenact spent 90% of his time in feldgrau, and 10% in black

also the yellow topper really pushes the boat out.

but , not all people get it,

at the arhnem game , a lot of people asked "why the stupid hat?"

they didnt read the fiction that i do. so they dont get it.
on parades and photoshoots , i wear the "issue" cap, so as not to spoil the atmosphere for the others, at some points in the game, out comes the "topper", and i get into charicter (from a fiction novel)

To me the CIA events are

1. semi serious, (it looks great when we all get together)
2. role play (i love acting out the battles, using AEGS is a bonus)
3. and fun (haveing a laugh, doing the impressions, so other Sven Hassel fans can laugh too)

winning / looseing i dont care, even though i do rip the allies on being so shite

its turning up, meeting GREAT people, thats what makes this group what it is, and having a laugh, with other like minded people.

I think by and large the level of advice/criticism offered has been tailored pretty well to the people who have posted up pictures of themselves.

For example, we have the basic uniforms put together but don't do insignia or the like (for a variety of reasons) and use BAR belts with M14s just because they fit the magazines. But we've only ever received encouragement, positive comments and a gentle pointer towards some blanco.

Having said all that I can't speak for those who might feel the same as Neil.

I would say that it may be because their kit is such a high standard they've probably been mistaken for someone inviting comments to the "N"th degree.

I was going to suggest having different threads with escalating levels of advice invited but that could lead to a two-tiered them and us situation, which would be BAD.

To be honest thats how i've always seen it and i've never meant to offend, i've alwsy assumed (assumption, the mother of all fuck ups) that anyone posting their loadout up and inviting comments wants to go for the 're-enactor' level of realism or they wouldn't be asking for advice?

Obviously its not the case and i'm happy to bear that in mind in future.