Thsi is really for richs benefit but other opinions are great.
Stubblehopper had asked me to teach a few lessons at the trianing day and i've spent a bit of time getting stuff together. After sending him a pm to confirm sessions i've since found out he wants me to teach modern british infantry tactics. this seems daft to me and not what were about really.
His PM:
Confirmed, however, myself and Pete have had this discussion before, and decided to teach evrything as per modern British army manuals, not ww2. the reasons being, that its a game at the end of the day: and we want to win the games using the best available tactics that we are both familiar with, we've both done junior and senior Brecon and already know the lesson plans off by heart, plus you've got a mixture of allies and axis troops all with different section battle techniques, its only going to lead to confusion and lots of silly questions from the people being instructed.
Its up to you but I'd prefer you to stick to the modern stuff for the moment. When this hobby gets bigger, which it will given time, then we could go over to ww2 tactics and teach 3 different sets of drills for the respective groups US, Brit and German seperately, but when you have an amalgamation of people like we do at the moment, I just feel its a bit too impractilce, plus we've already done a TD and taught modern drills to many of the people coming at the weekend.
The reply i'm considering sending:
I've spoke to Yith
Basically I dont think as a Cia organiser its right for me to do things in a completely modern way (e.g. its ludicrous to teach cam and concealment with cam cream).
Pity we hadnt cleared this up earlier i guess.
I think the argument that its a game and wanting to win via the 'best tactics' is exaclty what we *dont* want at cia TBH otherwise we'd be playing open days and not trying to recreate the feel of the forties.
I'm still happy to do this but as an orgnaiser of WWII events i dont feel i should be teaching a modern skills set when it actually damages what we're trying to do by doing so.
We want people to be using the MG as a base of fire etc, patrolling in accurate ways (not like they are scooting through basra), camming up like 40s commados (we had a few guys in modern cam creme at Arnhem which annoyed us as it just looked stupid on the day)
I just feel teaching layers to act liek modern soldiers makes it much less wwii and more like a stirling event in fancy dress.
Hope you understand.
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
I wouldn't get hung up on this at all. I agree it would be better to learn WWII techniques if possible, and hopefully it's something we can look at when/if we have the skills / knowledge to do it properly .
I think it's entirely appropriate that as a CiA organiser you can help out our forum members with a social /training event , and for much the same reason myself and David wento the last one ot show our support . Stubblehopper deserves all the help he can get ; he is helping to build a cohesive bunch of players on our forum to help with our games. To back out at short notice for the reasons given I feel is very poor form .
Neither you nor Yith went ot the last one (it was a very good social event , the training was les of interest ot me personally), I would suggest go along , help them out with your Army skills, and if you feel really bad about it then you can always decline the next one .
There is always a tendency ot pre judge all these events, ( I'm thinking of all the fuss over DDay as well) . They are what you make of them .
So please, don't feck it off now .
I really dont want to teach folk modern drills.
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
Not sure what difference that makes , are you up for teaching them authentic drills instead? (ie do you know them ?)
If you can teach 1940s tactics that would be worth doing , but if you can't then modern will have to suffice. I wouldn't worry about it , most people forget training within 60 secs . These events are as much about building brand loyalty and social bonding than anything else .
" reasons
firstly i feel hat modern fire and manouvre and patrol skills are *not* wwii some very fundamental differences. I dont have the words to explain how i feel about this but i odnt think its going to benifit our games having everyone learn to run around liek modern sodliers, cam like them, use modern signals and phrases etc.
Where is the wwii in that, if i wanted that i'd re-join the ta or become a cadet instructor again.
Secondly i morally dont feel comfortable with teaching those skills. I'm happy to teach the core wwii versions but i dont feel i want to teach modern battle drills to folk
I could do , i dont feel its right.
I'm happy to go and do a wwii training day, im not going to help run a TA phase 1 recruit cadre....
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
Point being is that i have to let Chris know that i'm unhappy with doing modern drills and will be teaching wwii if i do teach drills.
Is that pm i have drafted polite enough?
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
We have discussed this at length following the last training day.
I was most surprised when we were taught modern ambush techniques including checking bodies for grenades!
So, difficult one this. As Guy says, SH is putting a lot into it so the least we can do is support him. I have completely forgotten 90% of what he told me last time (I'm not a very good pupil!) but what I did pick up and was of use to me I have used in-game.
But this is largely a side issue - by far the biggest benefit is the social and team bonding seen to such good effect at Churchills. As we all know, military techniques both past and modern have little relevence in airsoft - team spirit and working together is the key!
So, no big deal - you are helping SH out, not representing CiA, in the same way I will be on Sunday. It's not us and them, it's just us. 
When SH actually has an event I can go to I will go... It pissed me off that he invited me and had to say no because of another event that has priority.
It pissed me off when the next event doesn't even give me the chance to go, as I refuse to get kit for a different nationality
And now... this...
Personally my current thoughts are not far from Gadge's, possibly more agressive.
i.e. He can go screw himself.
We do WW2 airsoft. We should be encouraging our players to do ww2 tactics and drills, etc.
We should most definately NOT be teaching stuff that is inappropriate to ww2 as that is detrimental to what we are trying to acheive here and is not why most of the players have got into this.
Eh? What event can't you go to Richard? You can come as Brit on Sunday, no problem.
WE aren't teaching modern tactics, he is. It's his shout, not ours but it is in our interests to support him.
Don't get me wrong, I would much prefer WW2 tactics (such as they were!) and we are all agreed on that. But now isn't the time to tip the applecart and piss him off.
What we can do is discuss our POV with him face to face and persuade him!
But, it's a bit late to pull out now Gadge, it's not going to look good as this should have been discussed weeks ago when you agreed to do it.
If i'd have been sent a brief or any contact sooner it would have been.
I'll do it but i wont teach modern tactics, thats not debatable.
Im just trying to find a polite way to say so.
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
Add to that Evo/Dieselmonkey is my lift and he isnt going if its modern he's adament.
@yahoo.com">evo666@yahoo.com says:
if i wanted modern FIBUA and god knows what else, i'd buy a balaclava, an AK and go to open days.
@yahoo.com">evo666@yahoo.com says:
doesn't interest me in the slightest, i don't want to pretend i'm special forces.
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
I.e. He can go screw himself.
FFS get a fu.cking grip . The bloke's done a lot ot help us build a bunch of loyal punters , first on the German side and now he's doing it to help the Allies . Maybe if we'd got off our asses and done this we would have had all the bollox at CR, but we didn't .
Your response is way out of line .
Re Training , I asked if anyone knows and can teach WWII tactics, if so stand up now , if not then you can't fault someone for teaching what they know. Any training is good if it makes people act more like soldiers and less like airsofters .
yes i can teach wwii fire and movement
yes i can teach wwii cam and concealment
yes i know wwii handsignals
is that ok?
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
I can't get this weekend as I have an important event that I must not and will not miss. I explained this to SH ages ago and said I could probably do a different date. He was unwilling to change dates... fair enough I would come to the next one.
When the next one is announced its Russian and German troops only... so I can't attend. I will not be going as either. Period.
Guy, I know its out of line... and thats fine, that is why I have not mentioned it before. This is just the way I feel on the matter and that is it.
However I thought I'd mention my full feelings on this rather than just let it smoulder underneath. This is a private forum and we are friends. I should be able to speak my mind without re-crimination.
We should teach WW2 stuff at these events and if we don't know WW2 stuff then we should go out and find out what it is... Its not an impossible task. I can and have pointed Gadge to several resources with British WW2 training info in them. If I'd been there I'd have even been able to work from my original WW2 section commander course lecture notes that deals with a lot of what would be needed. Its all out there if you want it and there's even a fair amount on the net. To teach modern stuff is just lazy.
Have to agree, i've gone out of my way to lear the 1940s version, took me all of about two hours...
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
yes I can teach wwii fire and movement
yes I can teach wwii cam and concealment
yes I know wwii handsignals
is that ok?
Absolutely marvellous ! 
Then teach others how to do it . Tell SH that we have the ability to do it , and then teach em it . I had assumed that none of us knew these tactics well enoguh to make a go of it . You could even offer ot do Allies with WWII to compare against Axis with modern , the possibilities are numerous .
Rich
However I thought I'd mention my full feelings on this rather than just let it smoulder underneath. This is a private forum and we are friends. I should be able to speak my mind without re-crimination.
I've no problem with this at all, I just can't understand where your hatred for this bloke comes from TBH. He's teaching modern stuff because that's what he and Pete Dunn know backwards from years spent doing it for real . The fact he's got off his ass and is prepared ot drive all the way down from Newcastle ot do it far outweighs a lack of authenticity IMHO . I don't think there's any element of subversion , just he's doing what he knows ot help out the scene .
Go for it then Gadge - if anything, it'll provide an interesting counterpoint to the more modern tactics used.
The funny thing, at least from a German point of view, is how close to "modern" tactics the germans were when it came to things like patrolling.
What does strike me as out of order, is your response Richard.
Personally my current thoughts are not far from Gadge's, possibly more agressive.
I.e. He can go screw himself.
We do WW2 airsoft. We should be encouraging our players to do ww2 tactics and drills, etc.
Not very constructive. SH has got off his arse and done something. So what if it's not 100% accurate. It strikes me that this is about cameraderie more than anything else. If i didnt have an engagement bash to go to this weekend, i'd be there (Not to mention being On-Call as well this weekend 
)
When we were a Kingdom it was run by a King
When we were an Empire it was run by an Empress
Now we're a country we're run by a..........
I think the point is though that modern 'ethos and drills' sets the scene back.
it might help socially but it doenst help endear a 1940s feel.
It just becomes Stirling services in fancy dress.
For the record.
Fire and movement: only major difference is that the MG is the base of fire and you workin gun group and rifle section *every* army did this, no one did what we do now in charlie delta teams.
Cam and conceal: There was no cam cream, you use mud or cocoa or blancoe, outlines were broken up and metal objects muddied or painted
hand signals are much the same
Formations are largely the same but to my knowledge some modern formations simply did not exist.
As for FIBUA training in the future, really didnt exist until the lessons of Stalingrad and Arnhem.
Teaching stuff that simply didn't exist is as relevant to the scene as teaching players how to use night vision effectivley, sure it will make them win game s but its not WWII and its not what we set out for is it?
"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."
Its not hate... I don't know him so it can't be hate.
I am just pissed off with him...
Authenticity is not hard to acheive... Thing is here he knows its wrong, but is not willing to make the effort to make it right.
We have a term for that in re-enacting circles, "FARB", and its not something you want to be called.
It doesn't have to be perfect, but he should at the least make an effort to make it better.
What makes things worse is that now we have Gadge here who knows which way to do this, but he is not even willing to give him the time of day as regards ww2 style training.
Meh... anyway its all by the by... I won't be there.
However if I see anyone who's been to these training days cammoed up like the incredible hulk then I'll be very unimpressed.
First I've heard of a Russian/German training day!
TBH, the odd thing is that SH knows WW2 tactics inside out - that's what he did/does as a reenactor so I'm sure it isn't impossible. Indeed, he wasn't dismissive of this in his PM to you Gadge.
I'm not sure SH's point about using modern techniques to win a game is valid at all, it never has been an issue of who won any of our games but always the taking part. How liberal!
Go on then Gadge, push him a bit further and see what happens...
