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New Rules for St Lo. BAR and Headgear

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 Yith
(@yith)
Illustrious Member

We'll be trying out two new rules at St Lo.

BAR
The current ammo rules don't really fit for the BAR.

It's not really a support weapon as it has such low capacity mags and can be used when moving. But does work in a two man team... though the 2nd man isn't really a loader.

Hence we've been looking how to simulate this in the game. We'll have two BAR's in the game for this one: Webby's and Pete's.

First off. the BAR is very heavy and can't be carried and fired for long without the firer getting tired. Hence we are going to allow firing from the hip. However when doing so the gunner is limited to short bursts of 3 to 5 rounds. When prone or supported it can fire full auto and put down proper fire.

BAR mags are 190 rounds.The ammo restrictions will work this in. There will be one mag in the gun at the start of a mission and then 2 in the gunner's webbing and 2 in the assistant's webbing. Allowing a maximum of 950 rounds overall.

Headgear
In blank-firing private battles they have a system that dead players should remove their helmets/headgear when shot and live ones should have them on.

We have decided to include this in our games in addition to the death throes rule used at Lightning.

What this means is that you should try to remove your headgear when shot and keep it off when returning to the safezone (or wherever). if this is a pain (eg. bad hair day), then it is fine to leave it on.

However more importantly, if you are alive in the game, you MUST keep your headgear on at all times. To be in the game without headgear will be regarded as cheating.

This will also enforce that everyone stays in character and keeps their damn headgear on. If there's one thing that really ruins the 40s look its when people take their helmets off because they are too hot.. :ghey:

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Topic starter Posted : 05/06/2009 12:01 pm




(@wladek)
Famed Member

This will also enforce that everyone stays in character and keeps their damn headgear on. If there's one thing that really ruins the 40s look its when people take their helmets off because they are too hot.. :ghey:

I have been guilty of that in the past, until I saw a picture how how much of a tw@t I looked :oops: , now it is always on my mind to keep a hat on.

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Posted : 05/06/2009 12:06 pm




(@bedsnherts)
Famed Member

I've been looking at the Budesarchiv photos of FJ in Normandy. This one caught my eye for a few reasons - and they certainly seem to be a fighting unit rather than loafing about in the rear:

Number of guys with soft headwear.
Number of guys wearing helmets with loosened chinstraps.
Number of guys without jump smocks.

Are any of these looks OK for the game? or are we after a more "filmic" representation of FJR.13?

Out of interest the pics of FJ in Monte Cassino ' 44 show them ALL wearing helmets ALL the time, presumably because it was way too dangerous to do anything else.

EDIT: once again with the pic attached...-- attachment is not available --

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Posted : 05/06/2009 12:36 pm




JD7
 JD7
(@jd7)
Illustrious Member

Martin you didn't tell us what the horse was wearing - is it as per regulation or more relaxed? :whistle:

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Posted : 05/06/2009 12:41 pm




dieselmonkey
(@dieselmonkey)
Noble Member

Are any of these looks OK for the game? or are we after a more "filmic" representation of FJR.13?

Out of interest the pics of FJ in Monte Cassino ' 44 show them ALL wearing helmets ALL the time, presumably because it was way too dangerous to do anything else.

Hell, they're the FJ, if that's what they wore, that's what they wore!

One of the few things i can remember my Grandad saying about Monte Cassino (from the Brit side!), was that the flying rock shards were just as likely to kill you as a bullet.

That and how the 'Darkies' (Gurkhas) were bloody good soldiers. I'm sure he meant well though, in a casually racist manner. :? :lol: .

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Posted : 05/06/2009 12:47 pm




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

Which is exacty what body armour and helmets stop 'sub velocity fragments' they cause the most casualties and consist of bricks, stones, fence posts and other detritus thrown about by hi ex.

Filmic martin, we'd liek to encourage folk to sweat it out in lids...




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Posted : 05/06/2009 12:55 pm




(@bedsnherts)
Famed Member

Martin you didn't tell us what the horse was wearing - is it as per regulation or more relaxed? :whistle:

It's Friday and I'm winding down for the weekend by perusing images of global conflict, so :tongue:

I can tell you that the guy on the wagon is feeling well below-par. You can see he's feeling a little horse 8)

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Posted : 05/06/2009 1:02 pm




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

Joking aside i have pics of 2nd panzer moving into normandy and there horse drawn compliment have not only camouflaged the horses with foliage but some of them have been painted!




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Posted : 05/06/2009 1:26 pm




 Yith
(@yith)
Illustrious Member

There's a legend about the chindits painting their mules green as well. I've not found any confirmation of it anywhere.

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Topic starter Posted : 05/06/2009 1:28 pm




Gadge
(@gadge)
Illustrious Member

well they painted their hats, makes sense really




"I think we are in rats' alley - Where the dead men lost their bones."

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Posted : 05/06/2009 1:29 pm




(@lardassmonkey)
Famed Member

I don't want to sound like a whiner but the BAR rules seems a little unfair. It has the advantage of being able to be used like a rifle yet has support weapon ammo capacity? Plus its whole ammo load is ammo concentrated in the BAR team where as a proper MG has to distribute it around the squad.
The only disadvantage I can see is the use of magazines which isn't a great one since they can be changed pretty quickly and are quite high capacity.

Surely if it is only a light support weapon it should have a lower ammo limit than a full, only useable deployed MG? Somewhere around 600 rounds maybe? This would help simulate the use of small Magazines rather than full belt/drum feeding as the gunners are only able to use Hicaps.

The taking headgear off when returning to the dead zone is a sensible idea but I don't think we need to do straight away on being hit. It was pretty obvious who was hit last time and people fiddling about trying to take off helmets (my FJ helmet can be a pain) as the die might look a little daft.
I would suggest only doing it if the battle moves on and the dead are staying in position so anyone that comes across them knows they are dead, or if you're getting up to go to the safezone. Or was that what you had in mind anyway?

they certainly seem to be a fighting unit rather than loafing about in the rear:

They're certainly a fighting unit but they are 'at rest' so you'd expect a lot of kit to have been taken off at the first opportunity.

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Posted : 05/06/2009 1:36 pm




(@bedsnherts)
Famed Member

well they painted their hats, makes sense really

Maybe they painted their asses too :D

BOOM BOOM

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Posted : 05/06/2009 1:41 pm




 Yith
(@yith)
Illustrious Member

I don't want to sound like a whiner but the BAR rules seems a little unfair. It has the advantage of being able to be used like a rifle yet has support weapon ammo capacity? Plus its whole ammo load is ammo concentrated in the BAR team where as a proper MG has to distribute it around the squad.
The only disadvantage I can see is the use of magazines which isn't a great one since they can be changed pretty quickly and are quite high capacity.

Surely if it is only a light support weapon it should have a lower ammo limit than a full, only useable deployed MG? Somewhere around 600 rounds maybe? This would help simulate the use of small Magazines rather than full belt/drum feeding as the gunners are only able to use Hicaps.

Well we certainly will take that into consideration. I will discuss it with the others. But I do remember Webby saying to me that it was a right bugger to use non-prone anyway. The whole prone rule was originally put in to stop players using look-a-likes as support weapons and running around with them...

The taking headgear off when returning to the dead zone is a sensible idea but I don't think we need to do straight away on being hit. It was pretty obvious who was hit last time and people fiddling about trying to take off helmets (my FJ helmet can be a pain) as the die might look a little daft.
I would suggest only doing it if the battle moves on and the dead are staying in position so anyone that comes across them knows they are dead, or if you're getting up to go to the safezone. Or was that what you had in mind anyway?

Yes that was the idea anyway...

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Topic starter Posted : 05/06/2009 1:43 pm




dieselmonkey
(@dieselmonkey)
Noble Member

The taking headgear off when returning to the dead zone is a sensible idea but I don't think we need to do straight away on being hit. It was pretty obvious who was hit last time and people fiddling about trying to take off helmets (my FJ helmet can be a pain) as the die might look a little daft.
I would suggest only doing it if the battle moves on and the dead are staying in position so anyone that comes across them knows they are dead, or if you're getting up to go to the safezone. Or was that what you had in mind anyway?

Oh yes, it's not a case of immediately removing your lid to show your're dead, dramatic deaths, holding your hand up etc will show an immediate hit, and then you can take your lid off to show you're a non-combatant if you want to move out of the way etc. We're hoping it will save on 'overkill' hits, and also on confusion about not being sure whther someone in the distance is still in the game or not.

basically:

Helmet on = In game/possibly dead.

Helmet off: Definately out of play.

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Posted : 05/06/2009 1:43 pm




(@wladek)
Famed Member

I don't want to sound like a whiner but the BAR rules seems a little unfair. It has the advantage of being able to be used like a rifle yet has support weapon ammo capacity? Plus its whole ammo load is ammo concentrated in the BAR team where as a proper MG has to distribute it around the squad.
The only disadvantage I can see is the use of magazines which isn't a great one since they can be changed pretty quickly and are quite high capacity.

Surely if it is only a light support weapon it should have a lower ammo limit than a full, only useable deployed MG? Somewhere around 600 rounds maybe? This would help simulate the use of small Magazines rather than full belt/drum feeding as the gunners are only able to use Hicaps.

Though the BAR did have the advantage of being able to be used as a rifle and support weapon, to a level. Remember they are being used by Webby and Pete, and will be used under the direction of the Squad commnders so there will be no blatting out ammo on the run or such. Plus there are loads of you. :wink:

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Posted : 05/06/2009 1:45 pm




(@lardassmonkey)
Famed Member

Though the BAR did have the advantage of being able to be used as a rifle and support weapon, to a level. Remember they are being used by Webby and Pete, and will be used under the direction of the Squad commnders so there will be no blatting out ammo on the run or such. Plus there are loads of you.

It can be used as both but then even the MG42 can be fired from the hip, its just not advisable in normal circumstances. I do trust in Webby and Pete to play the role properly and I fully support the introduction of new rules for MGs or light support weapons to simulate the real squad setup. I was just thinking it should be done in a way that doesn't give one side more of an advantage than the other.

But I do remember Webby saying to me that it was a right bugger to use non-prone anyway.

I expect it is but it does give the gunner the advantage of immediately being able to return fire rather than having to deploy first if ambushed or fire from high obstructive foliage without the need of a support which could make all the difference.

As for helmet thing-thats fine by me.

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Posted : 05/06/2009 2:01 pm




webby
(@webby)
Famed Member

I'm alright for keeping my lid on at all times, another thing which is cool too, most of the time the yank helmet shoots off your head and rolls away when you fall to the ground :)

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Posted : 05/06/2009 2:03 pm




(@wladek)
Famed Member

That's why you get to do the holding rifle with one hand and helmet with another - like in the filums. :D

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Posted : 05/06/2009 2:04 pm




dieselmonkey
(@dieselmonkey)
Noble Member

Though the BAR did have the advantage of being able to be used as a rifle and support weapon, to a level. Remember they are being used by Webby and Pete, and will be used under the direction of the Squad commnders so there will be no blatting out ammo on the run or such. Plus there are loads of you.

It can be used as both but then even the MG42 can be fired from the hip, its just not advisable in normal circumstances. I do trust in Webby and Pete to play the role properly and I fully support the introduction of new rules for MGs or light support weapons to simulate the real squad setup. I was just thinking it should be done in a way that doesn't give one side more of an advantage than the other.

But I do remember Webby saying to me that it was a right bugger to use non-prone anyway.

I expect it is but it does give the gunner the advantage of immediately being able to return fire rather than having to deploy first if ambushed or fire from high obstructive foliage without the need of a support which could make all the difference.

As for helmet thing-thats fine by me.

With the BAR rules, we are going to be using them as a test period, and see how it goes, but I think the point is, the BAR was able to immediately return fire to a certain degree, just not in prolonged bursts, which hopefully the new rules do cover accurately.

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Posted : 05/06/2009 2:04 pm




webby
(@webby)
Famed Member

But I do remember Webby saying to me that it was a right bugger to use non-prone anyway.

It is incredibly heavy to hold at the firing position for prolonged periods of time, and by that I mean I'm not that strong and my arms ache after about 20 seconds lol

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Posted : 05/06/2009 2:09 pm




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